About the podcast

The Chess Underground Podcast is one of the four monthly (!) Chess Podcasts officially hosted by US Chess – the official chess federation of the United States of America. The show is hosted by NM Pete Karagianis, the US Chess Assistant Director of Events, and was first launched in November 2020. It is devoted to a wide variety of different chess topics – ongoing chess news, discussion of chess events, discussion of chess trends such as the rise of chess streaming during the pandemic, etc.

But the show also covers some unconventional topics, such as „Online Chess All-Nighters“ or „What is Chess Most Like“. This unconventional side is also foreshadowed by the official show description that states that The Chess Underground Podcast „explores eccentricities, peculiarities, and theoretical novelties“.

And it was precisely this unconventional, peculiar and eccentric side of the podcast that attracted me immediately to it and turned me into a regular listener.

My impressions of the podcast

Even though the Chess Undeground Podcast was launched way back in 2020, I wasn’t fully aware of its existence ¹ until the following Twitter exchange that happened on 19th April 2022:

(For more INCREDIBLY FUNNY INSIGHTS AND COMMENTS LIKE THE ONE ABOVE, PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER)

After receiving a reply from the US Chess official account, I realized that US Chess hosts no less than four (!) monthly podcasts. I immediately gave them all a listen and tried adding them to my regular podcast listening schedule. Yet, out of the four, The Chess Undeground was somehow the one that attracted me the most.

Why is that so?

For me personally, the „quirky“ vibe of the podcasts and the interesting topics that are being discussed make it somewhat unique and different compared to the other chess podcasts out there. I personally find in-depth discussions about the intricacies of the chess variants, the history of the online chess degeneracy, or who would win in a hypothetical chess match between Shrek and Andre the Giant extremely interesting and entertaining.

Of course, if it was all silliness and quirkiness, the podcast would have quickly become too absurd. This is why it is important to mention that the podcast is not ALL about these strange and unconventional topics. Thus, you will also have the opportunity to hear entertaining chess stories and discussions about chess books, chess tournaments, and chess players.

In my opinion – just like the Chess Feels Podcast -the Chess Underground has managed to find just the right balance between serious and non-serious, which makes it very insightful and at the same time entertaining.

I think all the credit for this general „vibe“ of the podcast should go to the host, Peter Karagianis. Peter strikes me as an extremely intelligent and informed person with an enormous, genuine passion for the game, while at the same time also as someone with a great sense of humour and who doesn’t take himself too seriously.

I also thoroughly enjoy the fact that his co-host in the majority of episodes since I started listening to the podcast was NM Gopal Menon – the same Gopal featured heavily in the aforementioned legendary episode nr.8 of the Chess Feels Podcast. Gopal is another extremely funny, yet extremely strong and knowledgable chess player. I think his dry, sarcastic and self-deprecating style perfectly complements Peter’s a bit less absurd, but no less relaxed personality and I find the dynamic between the two absolutely hilarious.

I genuinely hope Gopal will continue to be a regular on the show. But even if he doesn’t, I can wholeheartedly recommend the Chess Underground Podcast to everyone.

Notable episodes of the podcast

As mentioned earlier, since I found out about The Chess Undeground relatively late in the day, I naturally started by listening to some of the newer episodes – and three of them, in particular, left an indelible impression:

• Episode 37 titled „What Is Chess Most Like“, is particularly noteworthy for Gopal Menon’s passionate hate for overly used comparisons to chess in popular and sports culture.
• Episode 40, which provides a very insightful and thoughtful discussion on performing at one’s best and what contributes to the feeling of „flow“ in a chess tournament.
• Episode 41, in which the topic is Online Chess All-nighters. It also attempts to answer the million-dollar question: „Would Gopal know how to adjust the ICC client Blitzin settings even today?“

With that being said, I did go back in time to check some of the older episodes, and I really liked:

• Episode nr. 2 featuring a discussion with Micah Tuhy – a representative of the endangered species – chess historians. As someone who interacted with Micah a bit back in my Quora days, it was very interesting to hear him talk and share his infinite passion for the game in podcast form.
• Episode nr. 28 featuring WFM Devina Devagharan. Even though I am not too big of an aficionado of the Twitch culture, streaming, and Twitch personalities, I did listen to this one with great interest. It was very interesting to hear about the challenges of Twitch Stream from a „smaller“ streamer ², and I also admire Devina for her firm stand related to mental health.

The post The Chess Underground Podcast Review appeared first on Chessentials.

Sometimes in life, you get to know to meet and develop a relationship with complete strangers in a totally unexpected way.

Back in 2020, I had a phase during which I read exclusively chess-related novels. ¹ Among other things, I stumbled on the book The Greenbecker Gambit which is a character novel revolving around a completely delusional and mentally deranged chess player who is way past his prime, but who is totally engrossed in his own greatness and who still believes he has a shot of becoming the World Champion. ² I really liked all the grotesque and humour, but also the pain ingrained in the novel and thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

So, after finishing the book, I did the perfectly natural thing any self-respected chess blogger would do – I reached out to the author of the novel, Ben Graff, and asked him whether he would do an interview… which then I delayed and procrastinated over taking forward for almost a full year.

Fortunately, in the end, I did manage to come up with a set of questions and Ben – an extremely likable and approachable guy – decided he still wants to have something to do with an unreliable millennial and agreed to do the interview – which I am happy to bring to the light of the sun today!

Ben Graff is a man with a very rich biography and an impressive and inspiring life story. He describes himself primarily as a writer and chess journalist – he has written two books (one chess-related and one non-chess related) and has been a regular contributor to Chess Magazine, he writes for The Chess Circuit and The Gazette (The Blind Chess Association Magazine) and also for Authors Publish and a number of other publications.

But the incredible thing is – writing is not his only (or even primary) profession – for the last 20+ years, he has been working as a Corporate Affairs Professional at the National Grid, where he currently holds the position of Senior Executive Advisor. He is also – by his own admission – a complete chess addict ³ Ben has been playing the game for several decades on the club level.

Considering he is also very open, verbose and approachable and that we share a lot of similar interests (for example, he extensively wrote about mental health and chess), I once again found myself in the position of wanting to ask too many questions in a too short amount of time.

This will, therefore, most probably turn out to be another very long interview. However, we can hear and learn a lot from Ben’s rich experience as a chess player, chess writer, manager and father, I hope that dear reader, you will forgive me and that you will be as excited to read this interview as I was when preparing the questions and reading Ben’s answers!

Hope you will enjoy it!

About Ben’s job and writing

Q: Hi Ben and welcome to Chessentials! It is my big pleasure to have you for the interview and I want to thank you for being so approachable and willing to share your rich experience and expertise and for being patient for how long it took for this interview to unfold.

Given your diversity, it was very hard for me to structure this interview and decide on the very first topic. I usually start with chess, but in this particular case, I thought it might make some sense to reverse the order and start by talking a little bit about yourself and your writing.

I have briefly mentioned your writing credentials in the introduction, but perhaps we could kick off this interview by presenting the readers with a more overall overview.

Therefore, to begin with, let me ask you. How and when did you first get into writing?

A: Thanks for having me, Vjeko. I really admire your work and it is great to talk with you and to be on Chessentails!

I always wanted to be a writer. That and chess have always been my two passions. I did start writing at quite a young age. In my twenties, I wrote a novel, but it did not get published. Over the years I wrote a few short stories and articles for club chess magazines, but I was not ready to take on a bigger project. I just could not see a pathway for myself into writing for a long time. So, I would say the writing was a long-standing dream, but one that I did not make a reality for years.

More recently, I finally got going and published my first book, Find Another Place. This was really the story of my family, albeit it does have some chess in it. Last year I wrote a chess-based novel called The Greenbecker Gambit, which charts the course of a delusional chess player who is convinced that he is the rightful world-champion.

Q: Aha, so there was a long period from your first serious endeavor into writing and publishing your first book. How come that happened at a “relatively late” point in your life, considering you have always wanted to become a writer? Was there anything preventing you from becoming a writer earlier? 

A: I think probably a lack of confidence stopped me from becoming a writer earlier. Like many people who want to write, I spent far more time talking about writing than actually writing. It is easy to inadvertently hold yourself back. I certainly could have got myself more organized a little sooner.

I would say to anyone who wants to be a writer, that there is no magic formula. There probably is never going to be a perfect time either. I would just encourage everyone to go for it. The hardest thing is to start, but once you take that first step, everything that follows becomes easier.

Somebody once said to me that the difference between writers and non-writers is that writers stick at it and finish their books. I think there is a lot in that. In many ways writing is about 95% perspiration and 5% inspiration. It tends to reward those who persist and are prepared to put the hard-yards in. I wish I had realized this a bit sooner!

Q: Do you ever regret not becoming a writer earlier?

No regrets. Things generally work out for a reason. I really enjoy what I am doing now, and it feels like the right time. I certainly hope to do a lot more writing in the years ahead. All any of us can really do is to seize the day. Look forward, not back.

Besides, I am a mere youngster compared to David Jenkins who published his first chess novel Spurious Games in his eighties! It is never too late for anyone to make a start.

Q:  That is a very healthy and mature way of looking at things, even though this ‘zen’ / ‘delayed gratification’ / ‘being content with what you have’ mindset is sometimes very difficult to achieve. ⁴

So, with all the above being said – what WAS the thing that “finally nudged” you in the right direction? How did you get from “hoping to write more” to actually “writing”?

A: A few things happened that finally got me started. Sadly, I lost both my parents within a six-year period. Both died quite young and somewhat unexpectedly. I realised that I knew a lot of stories that would eventually be lost unless they were written down and I thought this might be something that I could do.

My mother had always encouraged me to write more. I saw a counselor for a bit after her death, who would always say to me “life is now”. I recognized that I could not keep putting off starting to write forever. Somehow, I was not scared anymore. I just wanted to write come what may.

Q: Now that you mentioned your job – you have told me before the interview you have worked at the National Grid for more than 20 years. You started immediately after college, right? Could you tell us what your job is and what activities does it entail?

After University, I knew I had to find a way to earn some money, so I got myself a job at National Grid. I guess I am unusual in doing over twenty years at one company. The world has changed so much, I cannot imagine many millennials starting out now who will stay so long with one company!

I have spent more time in Corporate Affairs than anywhere else, but I have also worked in commercial, regulatory and other policy-based jobs and as Chief of Staff for several Board Members.

I get to work with great people, and I enjoy what I do. A lot of my day job in National Grid entails corporate writing, such as press releases and internal comms announcements as well as policy papers. This isn’t creative in the sense that writing a novel is, but it helps me hone my technique. I think as well as reading a lot, getting plenty of words under your belt one way or another is a great way to develop as a writer.

I think having a day job, chess and writing gives me a nice balance and I am lucky in this regard.

Q: Hmm, I know from experience it is very difficult to balance a day job with any serious endeavor/hobby. Do you think your job got in the way of your writing? How do you manage to find a healthy balance between writing, job and all other challenges life blesses us with?

A: It can be a challenge. Perhaps there are times when I am busy at work and I find myself writing a little less, but essentially, I have a good routine. I am a morning person and will get up early most days (and at weekends) to write. I am quite disciplined, and I find I do my best creative work before the normal day has started. It never feels like a chore to me.

People often say writers should try and write a little bit each day. I am not 100% sure this is essential. You must listen to your body a bit. Sometimes a writer needs space to recharge the batteries, but equally finding the time of day when you write best and structuring things such that you can carve out this space to write reasonably regularly, is important. It is like everything else, once you form the right habits it becomes easier.

I generally feel the early morning is for writing, the day for my job and the evening for chess and relaxing. It seems to work!

I should also just mention that my day job has given me some interesting experiences. I have worked with some fantastic people and I fear I would become too introverted without it. Work has also given me a stack of material I might write about in the future!

About Ben’s first book, Find Another Place

Q: I am sorry you had to endure such a personal tragedy. You actually talk about it in greater detail in the book itself. But before we get to that question, could you tell us a bit more about the book Find Another Place itself? How did the book come to life and what is it about?

A: When my father was very ill with cancer, I spent a lot of time on the motorway driving to and from his house to spend time with him. I thought a lot about the past and the future. I think subconsciously the idea for the book was seeded on those drives.

Find Another Place was based on the theme that “Families are their stories” and looked back at my parent’s lives (including my sometimes-challenging relationship with my father). It also drew on papers, letters, and the journal my Grandfather (who had always wanted to be a writer, but despite having talent never quite made it) had written shortly before his own death. While it is not a chess book, it does also have some chess in it. I did write a little about playing simuls against Korchnoi, Nunn and Norwood and gave some thoughts on Fischer’s and others. In some ways Find Another Place helped me to realise what an integral part chess also played in my life.

For the first time, I was writing something for its own sake. I was determined just to write it and was fatalistic that whatever happened would happen. This was a story I had to share. I showed it to a publisher, and they asked me if I would be prepared to write a little more about my own experience of being a parent to add to that of being the son. I did and they published it! That was really where everything started…

Q: So the book was an attempt to tell your family’s story and reflect on your parents’ deaths?

A: Yes. Of course, as well as being very personal experiences for me, events like this are also universal. Sadly, all of us lose people we are close to over time. We are all destined to continually revaluate and re-remember. To try and make sense of both the past and the future. I have been grateful that several readers have told me that in some small way Find Another Place has helped them to make sense of their own similar experiences.

Q: You mentioned you relied heavily on your grandfather’s diary when writing this book. It is apparent in itself, as some chapters are narrated directly from his perspective. Are those chapters of the book edited or direct quotations from his diary?

A: It is funny. My Grandfather had terrible handwriting. While his journal had been typed up, the typed copy was lost. I had the original handwritten version. I had to work with a handwriting expert to decipher it. Other than the odd word, we did manage to do this. There were places where I edited slightly, and I did not use all the journal within Find Another Place, but it was very important to me that I remained faithful to what he had actually written.

Q: You mentioned your grandfather always wanted to become a writer, yet never become one. Was this “unfulfilled” desire of his one of the factors that motivated you to write the book once you stumbled upon it within the diary?

A: Yes. My grandfather actually concluded his journal by writing:

“I tried to write stories about spies and criminals, a world of which I had no experience. Little did I realise that the family I have just described provided the material for any number of novels. By the time I did realise it, it was too late.”

This certainly affected me. I think it is good advice for any aspiring writer more generally. It is certainly much easier to write about what you know than what you don’t.

Q: What did the writing process look like? How long it did take? What were some difficulties you encountered when writing? Was there ever a moment when you thought you wouldn’t be able to complete the book?

A: It was strange in some ways. When you have not had a book published before, you always wonder a bit as to whether the stack of material on your laptop will ever turn into anything that anyone else will see.

The final chronology of Find Another Place is not how I first drafted it. I actually wrote the passages about my father’s illness and death first, as they were really the trigger for me: our experience as a family as we faced his terminal cancer together. Ultimately, I reordered it a bit.

I also wrote about childhood. Being a parent and what I learned from that about the way I had been parented. Christmases, summer holidays, work and play. The quieter moments and those that were more dramatic. Happy times and sad – all that extraordinary range of events we call family life. As well of course as writing about chess.

There were times when the writing would make me laugh. Typing the ending was not the only point in the process that made me cry. I remembered things I had not thought about for a long time. I saw some things from a different perspective, years on from the event, through the eyes of family members now gone.

Nothing stays the same, even the past. There were even times when I played a little less chess so that I could get the writing done, albeit not many. This is how Find Another Place came into being.

About chess and writing about chess

Q: So far we have talked about your writing and your first book. Now, since this is a chess blog it shouldn’t come as surprise to anyone that you are also heavily “invested” in the chess world. You have already mentioned there were points in your life where you played a little less chess. The game is also present throughout Find Another Place and your second book, The Greenbecker Gambit – a chess novel – was the main reason we started our interaction and decided to do this interview.

But before we get to the actual book, I would like to talk a bit about your more chess background and how you started writing about chess.

So, allow me to ask you the generic question I ask each and every person I interview: When and how did you first get into chess? 

I was taught to play chess by my father. He was not particularly strong, but he knew enough to get me started. I would have been seven or eight. I went to a primary school (for kids up to the age of 11) where the Headmaster was very keen on chess. He would organize an annual tournament, which would usually result in me playing my younger brother in the final! My secondary school also had a chess club, which I joined on my first day.  It was through the teachers there that I started playing for the school, then the junior county team and a local adult club. I played my first weekend at Congress when I was 12 and have been playing ever since.

Q: What is your pure chess playing experience? 

Occasional moments of delight interspersed with lots of pain! My highlights include drawing with John Nunn and beating Tania Sachdev in simuls. I have also had good simul games against Korchnoi, Short and Norwood. I was third in the U-2000 section at the British in 2019, and I have won a handful of majors and done OK in some Opens.

I grew up idolizing the world’s best chess players and I hoped one day to join the ranks of the elite. The truth is, I am obviously not very strong. My current FIDE is 1860ish I think, but I absolutely love playing and the game has given me so much. I play regularly (pre lockdown OTB and currently online) in our local chess league. In normal times I would like to take part in some sort of OTB event once a month or so.

Q: Now even though you might be underestimating how difficult it is to achieve “even” 1860 FIDE (it may not be “strong” compared to the world elite, but it is definitely “strong” compared to an average chess player), it can be safely said you haven’t distinguished yourself as a chess player as you perhaps hoped to do in your youth.

However, you certainly managed to distinguish yourself as a chess writer, as over the last couple of years you have written extensively and regularly about chess in various publications and, ultimately, in your 2^nd book. Given your love for the game and writing, it seemed inevitable it would eventually happen, but I am still curious when and how did it exactly happen, following the publication of Find Another Place?

While Find Another Place was not a chess book, it did have some chess in it as we have touched on, and the publishers showed it to Richard Palliser at Chess Magazine. He liked it and let me write an article about the book.

I asked Richard if he would take more of my work and I started by writing pieces on playing in the British and being a spectator at the World Championship when it was in London. This morphed over time into me becoming a regular contributor. I generally write features on either my own chess experiences, chess history, book reviews and interviews and a few more varied topics.

For example, this year I have written pieces on “Chess anti-heroes”, the “Roaring Twenties,” (outlining why the 2020s will ultimately hopefully be as positive for chess as the 1920s ultimately were) and a look back at old chess magazines.

I am also interested in chess in the community (for example, I’ve written about the role chess can play in helping people with mental health challenges, and the blind and partially sighted chess scene.) There is certainly plenty to explore!

Q: Aha, so you basically knocked on some doors and one thing led to another?

Indeed. It is amazing how one thing tends to lead to something else. I now also write and do Podcasts for The Chess Circuit with Adam Raoof and I write for The Gazette (which is the Blind Chess Association magazine.) My mother was a teacher at the College for the Blind for many years, which is why I have always wanted to be a supporter of their fantastic work.

I have done a little bit of mainstream media and I am the chess consultant on a short horror film. (I’ve no idea if it will end up being made or not!) It is amazing what projects come along when you least expect!

Q: As customary for many success stories – it seems to me many of these opportunities happened due to people being willing to provide you with them. Apart from Richard and Adam, were there other people who helped you on your journey toward becoming a chess writer?

Yes, Richard and Adam were of great help!

I also must give credit to Carl Portman. He has written a well-known book called Chess Behind Bars and writes regularly for Chess. Seeing his work made me realise that you did not necessarily need to be a GM to write about chess. That other experiences and perspectives could also be valid. They always say you should write about what you know, and even if I was not a strong player, Carl gave me the confidence to see that I might still have something to contribute. Besides being a great role model, he was so encouraging when I talked to him about writing, and I do see him as a bit of a mentor.

Q: Circling back to your own chess game – do you have any goals in regard to it? Any willingness/motivation to improve? Or are you satisfied with where you are and trying to enjoy it as much as possible?

A: No real goals. Just to play and enjoy it. I am really looking forward to OTB chess starting up again in England (hopefully in the summer.) This last year of lockdowns has made me realize how important the camaraderie of a tournament or a club night really is, and I can’t wait to get back to these!

About Ben’s second book, The Greenbecker Gambit

Q: I think the previous part of the interview gives us a great context for the next topic your second, chess-themed book devoted to a delusional and part-tragic part-comical antihero Tennesse Greenbecker, titled The Greenbecker Gambit.

When and how did you get the idea of writing a chess book?

I had always wanted to write a chess-based novel. The Greenbecker Gambit was really formed from two separate chess-related ideas. When I was covering the Carlsen – Caruana world chess championship match in London, I wondered what might happen if a member of the audience attempted to storm the event, claiming that they in fact were Magnus’s rightful challenger. Then I got to thinking, what kind of person might this be? Could such a claim be perfectly logical to the protagonist?

I also wondered whether someone could use chess as a way of giving their life meaning, even if how they described their achievements at the board did not necessarily accord with objective reality. I imagined somebody holed up in a late-night café with a copy of Bobby Fischer’s My 60 Memorable Games and a backstory about their chess which may or may not be true. Either way though, for this person, their sense of their chess was what kept them going and gave their life meaning.

So it was that I came up with Tennessee Greenbecker.

Q: How and when did you decide to put that idea on paper and start working on the book? When you started writing the book, did you already have an agreement with the publisher? Or did you sign a contract upon sending them the manuscript, as for the case with Find Another Place?

A: James Essinger is the proprietor of The Conrad Press and he has a keen interest in chess fiction, having co-authored The Mating Game with WIM Jovanka Houska, which is currently being made into a film. He has also published books by GM Jonathan Levitt, Mark Ozone’s Chess Fever and soon will publish Carl Portman’s Chess Crusader, confessions of an amateur chess player.

I did have other offers, but James really “got” the book. We agreed terms after it was finished but had talked prior to this and I was delighted to work with James.

Q: As mentioned above, the very idea of winning the World Championship match is at the center of the plot of The Greenbecker Gambit. But it is primarily a character-driven novel, at the center of which is the main protagonist, Tennessee Greenbecker, a former top (?) chess player who toward the end of his life becomes delusional and paranoid. What can you tell us about Tennessee Greenbecker? How did you build his character and come up with some of his traits (e.g. fascination with pyromancy, fear of “State”)?

A: I certainly started with the idea of a character who had somehow managed to convince himself that he was the greatest chess player in the world. I guess there was always the question, if someone believes this, what else might they also believe? I had a lot of fun building out his inner logic, such that things which might seem ridiculous to someone else appear perfectly logical from his somewhat confused perspective.

It was clear that Tennessee Greenbecker would need a chess hero, and Bobby Fischer was the obvious example. It goes beyond just owning a copy of his book. Tennessee Greenbecker is convinced that he had a close personal relationship with Bobby. The reader will of course need to draw their own conclusions on this.

I also wanted him to have other anti-social tendencies and I struck on the idea that he might have an unhealthy fascination with fire. Indeed, other than Bobby Fischer, Guy Fawkes is really the only other person whom Greenbecker admires.

Tennessee Greenbecker is certainly not an easy character, but he always remains true to himself.

Q: Was he partly based on certain real-life chess players? I did get certain “Fischeresque” and “Bronsteinesque” vibes when reading the book. ⁵ How much were you influenced by stereotypes about (famous) chess players when conceiving the character of Tennessee Greenbecker?

A: It is always a balance. You want your characters to be themselves really, but of course elements of Tennessee Greenbecker the troubled chess player are recognizable. Certainly, Greenbecker’s fear of the State and suspicion of authority, in general, is reminiscent of Fischer. Not for nothing is he Greenbecker’s role model and idol. That said, there are points in the novel where Greenbecker actually wants the State to be more vested in him than they actually are, such is his craving for attention, which is a bit different to Bobby.

There are undoubtedly elements of Greenbecker’s obsession and general behavior that most chess fans will have seen in players at all levels, albeit hopefully not in such an extreme form. I have never known a pyromaniac chess player for example, and this was very much a work of fiction! So worth stressing again, whatever similarities people see, he is a fictional character!

Q: Considering that The Greenbecker Gambit is a significantly different book than Find Another Place, how did you approach writing it? How was the process of writing a second book different from the process of writing the first one?

A: It was different. I had a clear idea that the novel would essentially start with Tennessee Greenbecker playing through a game from Fischer’s book, while holed up in a café deep in the night. I was also sure that it would culminate in Greenbecker attempting to challenge Carlsen for the world title, so I had two reasonably clear points in mind to chart between. So, unlike Find Another Place, the chronology was fairly settled from the start. What did change as I wrote it was really my understanding of Tennessee Greenbecker himself. His inner logic certainly developed as I worked through the various drafts.

Q: The underlying idea behind Find Another Place was very clear – reflecting over past events and sharing your family’s story. Did you have any specific goal in mind, any message you wanted to convey throughout the book?

A: I think to write a chess-based novel that hopefully the chess community and others would enjoy. There just aren’t enough of these. I also wanted to create a character in Tennessee Greenbecker who people would remember, and perhaps form a range of interpretations about.

Q: What was the general reception and feedback of the book? I personally enjoyed it a lot because I recognized many people, I know (especially from chess player circles), as well as myself, in some parts of the book (reaction to losses, inability to accept facts and reality, blaming other people for personal shortcomings, becoming too obsessed with chess to the point of identifying with it, etc).

Another thing that delighted me personally about The Greenbecker Gambit was its ability to invoke mixed feelings of pity, compassion and contempt and combine them with an almost comical effect of Tennessee’s thought process and his interactions.

Were there any negative comments and reviews?

A: I have been fortunate in that the reviews have all been kind. One chess player reviewer did mention the fear that Tennessee Greenbecker does not necessarily give chess players a good name! He liked the book though.

What I have found interesting, which really mirrors the point in your question, has been readers reaction to the character. I have noticed that younger reviewers seem to have more sympathy for Greenbecker. They tend to empathize with his obvious mental health challenges and see someone trying to make the best of a difficult situation. Older reviewers are more likely to actively dislike him.

I am personally somewhat torn. I think Tennessee Greenbecker would be a difficult person to know, but I admire the fact that whatever the challenges, he always finds a way to keep going. That said, his behavior is frequently appalling.

 Q: Last but not least – would you like to share with the readers what exactly does “Gambit” in the title of the book refer to? Or would you rather recommend them to get the book and find it out for themselves? ⁶

A: Please do get the book! I guess all chess players like the idea of having a chess opening named after them. The “Greenbecker Gambit,” is a sub-variation of the Kings Gambit that Tennessee Greenbecker has invented. Albeit, whether he has or not and whether his invention is any good or even acknowledged as his work is all a matter of conjecture within the book.

About life and other topics

Q: So far, we have found a lot about Ben as a worker, chess player and writer, but we haven’t found out much about Ben as a person. This is what I usually like to do in the final section of the interview.

Now, this interview turned out to be longer than expected ⁷ I will try to keep this last part somewhat shorter than usual. Yet, I still want to ask you the final set of questions.

Q: You have written about your experience as a father in Find Another Place, but I will still ask – what do you consider as the biggest challenge when raising your kids? What would be your parenting piece advice for all (future) parents out there?

A: I think you just have to do your best and take it a day at a time.

Q: Apart from parenting, reading, writing and chess, do you have any other hobbies and interests?

A: I am very interested in current affairs, particularly in the UK and US, so I watch a lot of political shows. I love following sport. I am a big Manchester United fan and I also watch England play cricket when I can, but most sports will grip me. I also enjoy watching sport-related documentaries. My favourite two are both on Netflix – Drive to Survive which has just released a third series going behind the scenes of formula one is compelling viewing. Sunderland till I Die charts the fortunes of a football club in freefall and that is also very good.

We’ve also got cats and a dog, so life is always very busy!

Q: You seem to be a very productive and busy man? What motivates you to keep going and to keep creating? How have you kept your motivation throughout all these years?

A: I think I am lucky to have reached a point where I can do the things that interest me. I don’t see writing as work as such. At least not usually. I certainly enjoy the process of writing. It’s the same for most writers, but by the time an article or whatever reaches print, I am usually working and emotionally vested in a new piece of work. There is always a new idea to explore.

Q: Do you have a motto? Is it, Life is now?”. Or perhaps something else?

A: No motto as such. I think do your best and don’t take things too seriously probably just about covers it.

Q: Do you take any measures to avoid getting burnt-out? Have you ever experienced a real burnout? If yes – how did you deal with it?

A: I am conscious that with work, writing chess and family life I have to find time to switch off too. Work definitely gives me energy, but equally, I always find time to watch some sport or TV.

Q: You have mentioned that you – as basically every writer out there – read a lot. Since reading ⁸ is one of my favourite activities, I would like to ask you for some book recommendations.

What are your three favourite non-chess books and three favourite chess books of all time?

A: Wow, this is a really tough question! In terms of chess books, I would say: Searching for Bobby Fischer by Fred Waitzkin, Russian Silhouettes, by Genna Sosonko, King’s Gambit: A Son, a Father, and the World’s Most Dangerous Game, by Paul Hoffman and The Chess Artist: Genius, Obsession, And The World’s Oldest Game, by J.C.Hallman. (OK, that is four, but they are all terrific.)

Non-chess books is an even harder ask to whittle down! The Catcher in the Rye, by J.D.Salinger, Cancer Ward, by Solzhenitsyn and The Bonfire of the Vanities, by Tom Wolfe.

Q: Since your writing is very reflective and since you already hinted that there are numerous ways to enjoy chess, I was wondering what does chess represents for you today? What is your view on the game? What is chess really about?

I am hooked on the game itself, but chess offers all of us so much beyond the sixty-four squares. What I’ve been struck by this past year is the number of people who miss the connectivity that chess offers (me included). Yes, we can all play as much as we like online, ⁹ but it isn’t the same. Setting out on a freezing November night to meet teammates for a club match or spending a weekend amongst friends at a congress. That’s what chess is really about. Friendship in other words.

Chess is also quite a forgiving environment. It’s very accepting. You don’t need great social skills, and that draws a lot of people in.

For so many years, I was so results-focused, but I see now that that is only a small part of what chess has to offer. Perhaps the pandemic has taught us that chess is a bigger part of our lives than we realized.

Q: If someone asked you to provide them one piece of writing advice, what would that be?

A: If you work on a piece and don’t like what you have done when you return to it, this is a reason to be postive rather than disheartened. Essentially, you have just hit on ideas to make your original draft better. Writing is very iterative, taking the time to play about with your drafts is definitely a big part of the process. For most writers, writing is really a continual process of re-writing.

Q: And one piece of general life advice?

A: Don’t take anything too seriously.

Q: Last but not least – what’s next for you? What are some of your future plans? Is the next book already in plans?

I am doing a lot of journalism at the moment, but yes there will definitely be another book. It’s just a case of being sure that I care enough about the idea to want to spend the next two or three years living with it. I think I am now getting close to this point. Here’s hoping!

Q: Alright Ben, I will let you go know! Thank you so much on your time and your thorough answers and good luck in any future endavours! Looking forward to reading your next book!

You can get Ben’s books at the following places:

The Greenbecker Gambit

Amazon Link

shop.chess.co.uk Link

Find Another Place

Amazon Link

The post Writer, journalist, chess player: Ben Graff Interview appeared first on Chessentials.

Note 2: Other photos used in the interview were supplied by Antonio or taken with permission from his social channels. 

Note 3: This interview was originally published in “Šahovski Glasnik” – the official publication of the Croatian Chess Federation. They have very kindly allowed me to re-publish it on my own blog, as well!

Introduction

Hello everyone!

Even though the second half of 2020 has been very quiet for this blog, I seem to be on a roll with interview lately.

After the recent interview with my colleague Maaike Keetman, today I am happy to announce the return of the interview series. And in quite some style.

Because – as some of you might have figured out from my blatant ripping of my interviewee’s trademark opening words at the very beginning – today we will be talking with none other but my fellow countryman, the owner of the largest Chess Youtube Channel in the world, the famous Agadmator.

For those of you who have never heard of him ¹ Agadmator – better known to Croatian authorities under his real name Antonio Radić – is a chess player from a small town of Križevci in Croatia who currently runs the largest chess Youtube channel in the world (which recently crossed 900k subscribers – at the time of writing²).

Ever since starting the channel back in 2017, Agadmator has been uploading almost daily chess videos and growing his fanbase exponentially. Today he is one of the most recognizable „personas“ within the chess world, whose endeavors have recently extended way beyond Youtube.

In this interview, we will take an opportunity to talk a bit about what’s going on in his life – about the current state of his Youtube Channel, about his other projects such as his Podcast or Manga, about his future plans and about other off-the-channel events.

Please note that we will not talk about how he started to play chess or how and why he decided to start his own Youtube channels, as he has already talked about these topics extensively in a number of previous interviews, some of which can be found in the „References and Further Reading (and Listening)“ section at the end of this interview.

Many thanks to Antonio for taking the time from his busy schedule to do this.

Hope you will enjoy it!

Recent break/heart surgery

Q: Hi Antonio! Thank you very much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to do this interview, it is my pleasure and privilege to be able to ask you some questions.

Allow me to start by asking a question or two about your health. ³ Recently, you had undergone a hearth surgery. In a video of yours and in our prior conversations, you mentioned it is a heart valve replacement. From what I have figured, it is a „routine“ surgery, but whenever someone relatively young requires a heart surgery it makes everyone worry. Would you mind sharing which cause requires a heart valve replacement surgery and how did you realize you might need one?

A: In my case, it was a birth defect. My valve never fully developed and I knew it would have to be taken care of one day. When they told me I needed surgery, it wasn’t that big of a surprise.

Q: How did the operation go? Considering the current situation with the COVID, I imagine it is not the best time to get „sick“ in any sense of the word. Did precautionary measures make your stay in the hospital more difficult (was anyone able to visit you, for example?).

A: The actual stay in the hospital was very pleasant and we were not really “bothered” by COVID. We were not allowed to ever leave our floor. But all the tests and examinations leading to the surgery were a bit annoying as I had to get tested every time and they don’t do tests in my hometown so it was always time-consuming.

Q: Judging on your first video after the surgery – posted only three weeks after the video announcing the break due to the surgery – your recovery was very speedy and efficient. How are you feeling right now? Are you already feeling a difference in certain aspects of your physical state (say, in how quickly you get tired) compared to the time before the surgery?

A: My recovery is going much better than I anticipated. Lifting heavy objects aside, I am already doing pretty much everything and feeling much better than I ever did. There is no more constant pressure in my chest, I’m never out of breath and I don’t lose my strength suddenly out of the blue. As soon as my sternum fully heals, I’m hitting the gym, for the first time fully operational. All in all, I am extremely happy with my progress so far.

The current state of Antonio’s Youtube Channel ONLINE EMPIRE

Antonio’s Youtube Channel

Q: Okay, I think that does it with medicine-based questions. Time to switch to more cheerful topics!  After the surgery, you continued going strong with your Youtube channel and you have also recently crossed 900k subscribers. Do you feel proud and amazed every time you hit a new milestone, or has it become „business as usual“ by now?

A: I am happy with every new milestone and with every new subscriber that joins our ancient game. However, nothing compares to the moment when my channel first hit 100k subscribers. To borrow a GOT reference, I felt like that 1 in a 1000 special boys that mastered the dark arts. I was successful at something that involves chess – something I loved more than anything, without being particularly good at actually playing it.

Q: How do you handle such a major community. I imagine you must be bombarded with emails on a daily basis. Do you have someone helping you with that? Do you know some of your subscribers by name?

A: I mostly just tend to my videos and ignore everything else. I try to be active on other social media like Twitter and Instagram, but I mostly just post whatever comes to mind without much planning – nowhere near your daily joke quality content. I tend to it alone, but mostly by ignoring it, it would take up too much of my time.

Don’t get me wrong, I read every e-mail sent to me and enjoy absolutely every interaction with a subscriber, but I realized I simply can’t respond to all of it. Yes, I know most of my early subscribers by name and I’m very happy when I see them after all these years in the chat or the comment section.

Q: The magical number of 1 million subs seems closer than ever. Does that number ever figure in your mind or are you not thinking about those goals? Are you still planning a special Nezhmetdinov petition + agadmator nickname reveal at 1 million subs? Do you have any other surprises in store?

A: I will do a nickname reveal, although that is something I promised when reaching a million subscribers didn’t seem like an actual possibility As for Nezhmetdinov and his GM title, I’m still not sure. I will definitely make something big so even more people hear about him. It’s an important decision with dire consequences and quite possibly way above my pay grade. When the time comes, I will consult some competent people about it.

Q: Do you have any particular future plans/goals for your channel? Do you intend to mix it with the content a bit (say, by doing more instructional videos such as the video about the bishop and knight checkmate?). Or you intend to continue doing your thing and focus more on branching in other directions? ⁴

A: I have some ideas, but things mostly turn out differently so I’m not thinking about that too much. I’m not that big on planning. I’ve always been more of a “Wait and good things will happen” person.

Q: When you first announced you will do a major break due to the heart surgery in the video mentioned above – I realized this is your first major pause from video filming in a number of years.

This ability to always work is often quoted as one of the dangers of being a Youtuber/content creator. In these past years, did you ever feel like you were in danger of getting burnt out? Did it ever happen to you that you woke up and didn’t feel like filming a video? Do you take some precautionary measures to prevent it from happening?

A: The first time I heard big Youtubers speak of the term “burn out”, I thought it was nonsense and just something they were using to get attention. Now I know it’s an actual condition.

I try to do many other things alongside my Youtube “career” and even though I make a video every day, there were days where I skipped making one. I told myself long ago, if I don’t feel like making a video today, I’m not going to. Takes the pressure off.

However, I am still “young” in my Youtube career. Creators that have been doing it for 10 years or more would probably have more to say about this. Ask me again in a few years (if I don’t go mad, that is).

Q: One last Youtube-related question I can’t resist asking :P. It seems to me that you paved the way in a way for many content creators as the number of high-quality chess channels with huge following seems to increase on a daily basis.

The channel „Chess Talk“, is one of those that has risen very quickly to fame. If I am not mistaken, it is currently the 2nd chess channel in the world with more than 700k subs.

My provocative question, therefore, is: Do you ever worry about your „throne“ being shaken? About being overtaken? If that starts to happen, are we going to see the chess version of „Tseries“ vs PewDiePie in the near future?

A: PewDiePie had the help of every major Youtuber and it still wasn’t enough. Some things you can not influence.  It’s nice being on the top, but I am not worried about being dethroned. Different creators cater to different audiences and I am not the one that decides what people enjoy at this moment in time.

When I was starting out, I was amongst the weakest chess players making chess content online but became the biggest chess channel “in the blink of an eye” nevertheless. That is what people needed at the time and they came in large numbers. The same will happen with the next big channel I think and I am very happy for them. I started my channel to promote chess – someone dethroning me means I am doing a good job! ⁵

The Agadmator Podcast

Q: When you first started your channel, you focused mainly on chess game analysis videos and you kept doing it for a few years. However, somewhere in the middle of 2019 ⁶ you announced you will start „branching out“ and doing some other things, such as Agadmator Manga and Agadmator Podcast.

I do hope to talk about these endeavors in turn, but before we get to that, perhaps you can tell us how and when did you start thinking about doing things outside of Youtube (or outside of the „chess game analysis“ domain?).

A: Both the Podcast and the Manga are chess-related so it’s basically just a different medium to promote chess on.

Q: When was the idea for Agadmator Podcast first born? Why did you decide to start a podcast yourself (apart from stealing all Ben Johnson’s listeners, of course)?

A: I got the idea after seeing Lex Fridman’s podcast with Garry Kasparov. I thought it might be a good idea to start one about chess and also a good way for me to meet people who also spend their time promoting chess. Ben is doing an awesome job btw, I had the privilege of being a guest on his podcast. ⁷

Q: It did take quite some time to get the podcast going after the initial announcement – the first episode with Maxime Vachier Lagrave was published „only“ in May 2020? Was it because you wanted to get everything perfect and didn’t rush it or because you always took Podcast a bit more lightly than your Youtube Channel? What are the required steps in starting your own Podcast?

A: First I did some research on what equipment to get. Once I decided and finally bought the equipment, we needed to set everything up. The room had an echo so we needed to take care of that as well. My colleague Tino (the manga artist) helped a lot with that. Researching where and how to upload the episodes also took some time. Once everything was set up, it was time to start inviting guests.

Q: What is the current status of the Podcast? Some time has passed since the last episode with Hikaru and Nakamura. Are there any short-term and/or long-term plans for a release of subsequent episodes?

A: I had a lot of fun talking to MVL and Nakamura, but podcasting is much harder than you would think hahaha. I’m sure it will become more natural to me with time. I already had my third guest planned but my surgery got in the way and it put everything on hold. Once I recover sufficiently, I plan to continue with the podcast, maybe even soon.

The Agadmator Manga/Website

Q: Another major project you have been very enthusiastic about for quite some time is your own Chess Manga, the first chapter of which has been just recently published. If I am not mistaken, that project was in the making for almost a year or so?

How come you decided to do a manga compare to an „ordinary“ comic book? When was this idea first conceived?

A: The idea for the Manga came some 2 years ago but it took us some time to set everything up. Tino and I were talking about it and slowly started getting more serious about it. We have made 1 chapter so far and the second one is soon to be released.

Q: It was probably obvious to you that it is not a project you can undertake on your own, without an entire team of people. How did you go about assembling a team and selecting people for this project?

A: At one point, we were ready and I announced on my channel we needed a writer. Some 400 people applied and we went through all of their applications and asked them to supply a short story to see their writing style. We decided on a writer and a few months later we finally released Chapter One.

The only Manga I ever read was One Punch Man ⁸ but Tino reads a lot of it and that’s why we decided to go with that (Tino is a friend since childhood btw, we grew up as next-door neighbors). I just wanted another way to promote chess alongside my Youtube channel, and this seemed like a great idea. We’ll see how it goes

Q: Even though people can find out who the team members are on your website, perhaps we can give them a shoutout here and say who they are and what do they do? Perhaps it is a nice opportunity to mention who was the person/team who created your website and other people who help you maintain your ONLINE EMPIRE like your Discord mods?

A: Some of them would prefer to remain anonymous for now, we will do the full team reveal soon :).

Q: While we are at it – it was in this positionerino agadmatorino face reveal – when?

A: I don’t think we will ever witness that. I could be wrong, though. He/she is a very mysterious person.

Q: What was the workflow on the manga alike? How difficult it was to align between the team members? Did you let your team do your job or did you personally fulfill the role of a coordinator? Was Zoom often „burning“?

A: We had to do a lot of coordinating in the beginning, but I wanted to be included as little as possible. We set some ground rules and I wanted them to do their thing the best they can without any micromanaging. It was never burning as we didn’t have any deadlines. I hope we never will, but who knows

Q: Last and a little off-topic, but do you have favourite Manga/Anime? Could you at least provide us with your top 3 (apart from Age of Caissa, of course :P).

A: I’m a big fan of Dragon Ball. Watched all of it except Super (I tried, but it’s just sooooo bad). As for some shorter ones, Castelvania and Death Note were really good.

Twitch Streaming and Collabs

Q: On top of everything, you have recently also branched away from Youtube in the world of Twitch and streaming. How did you decide to start streaming on Twitch relatively recently? Was it because in order to diversify a bit from Youtube, or just because you wanted a place where you can display your other passion – old computer games – and interact with people?

A: I wanted to try out Twitch. I never used it before and it’s kind of a pretty big deal online so I wanted to at least know the basics. I decided to stream some chess, but mostly stick to other games. I have gotten much better at Zelda II: The Adventure of Link and even beat the game in one sitting hahahah. If time will allow, I would like to be able to speedrun at least one game.

Q: You were streaming very regularly some 3-4 months ago and even uploaded to your „half-forgotten“ Agadmator’s chess channel, but I don’t recall much activity lately. What is the current status of your Twitch channel and streaming career?

A: Ever since I learned I was to have surgery, I dropped most things to still have time for my chess videos and all the tests I needed to do for the procedure. I will probably get back to it, but I have no idea when.

Q: There were quite a few collaborations with other chess streamers and personalities during that period as well – most notably on the initiative of Samay Raina (who seems to be doing a wonderful job in doing the chess world and people together). How did this initiative come to fruition and can we expect to see more 4-player-chess and Scribble action in the near future?

A: It was fun hanging out with other streamers and I would enjoy more such collaborations in the future, regardless of the content (still haven’t tried Among Us). Sometimes it’s nice to just chill.

Off the board. Future plans and other (non) chess questions

Q: Last, but not least, I would like to do some non-Youtube and non-chess talk in the final bit of the interview.

Despite all the major events and successes, you will most certainly remember 2020 by proposing to your long-term girlfriend Jelena. ⁹ Huge congratulations! Was the proposal a complete surprise for her, or did she SUBTLY HINT that she would like to get a ring before?

A: Nah, it was a complete surprise. I was very sneaky about it. It’d be much better if she said Yes, though..

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Nah, just kidding, she did say yes :).

Q: In one of your videos you also mentioned you are also in the middle of building a house? ¹⁰ From what I have heard from other people, undergoing that process is quite a nightmare? How is the house doing? Are you enduring the battle against Croatian bureaucracy and workers?

A: We spent a lot of time on it but in the end gave up. Something got in the way and we couldn’t continue the house building saga. We did buy a house last month so it’s not all that bad

Q: Damn, I wanted to ask so many more questions, but this is already getting too long. So let me just ask three more. I do recall you mentioning analyzing games for videos isn’t particularly helpful and that you have some plans to try to improve. What is the status of your own chess game at this moment?

A: Basically, non-existent. It’s been a long since I did any work on my own game and I mostly just play bullet for fun with a blitz game here and there. Who knows what the future will bring

Q: I also recall you expressing a wish to organize a big Open tournament in your hometown of Križevci. Once again, now is not the time to organize any sort of events, but just wanted to check – is that idea still in plans for the future?

A: Of course. The First Agadmator Invitational and Open tournaments will happen, but the way things are going in the world, chances are it will be online.

Q: Allow me to wrap things up with a cliche of a question – if you could give one piece of advice to potential content creators and potential Youtubers/Streamers, what would it be?

A: Yes. Be yourself. Answering cliche question with a cliche answer, but it is true. By this I mean: Be the BEST possible version of yourself. If you pretend in your videos, you will only be able to do it for a little while before streaming and making videos becomes too difficult for you and you will either drop it or go mad.

Q: All right, Antonio! Thank you so much for taking the time and pilling through the „deep dark forest where 2+2=5“ of text I left you with. I really enjoyed asking you some of the questions as I wanted to ask them for quite some time and I hope you at least had SOME fun while answering them.

I wish you all the best in both your personal and private life and can’t wait to see what you have in store for the chess world in 2021.

A: Thank you for this amazing interview. I can’t remember the last time I answered so many questions hahaha. Looking forward to your daily jokes! (not a joke)

Be careful with what you wish, it might come true :D. Thanks once again for this amazing interview!

References and further reading (and listening)

Interview with Agadmator on FollowChess

Interview with Agadmator on Chessbase India

Agadmator’s Q&A Video

Agadmator on Quoth The Raven Podcast

Agadmator on Perpetual Chess Podcast

Agadmator’s AMA (Ask Me Anything) on Reddit

The post Chess Player, Youtuber, Vast Knowledge Seeker: Agadmator Interview appeared first on Chessentials.

WFM Maaike Keetman is a Dutch chess player who was a part of the Dutch Female National Team at the Baku Chess Olympiad in 2016. Outside of the Dutch chess circles, she is probably better known as Chessable’s employee as during her two-year reign in this company she supervised, edited and quality controlled hundreds of Chessable courses. In fact, due to her contributions and work-ethic, in late 2020 she became a Publishing Manager at that very company, at the age of 21.

On top of it all, Maaike also managed to apply all the knowledge about course creation she gained over the years and channel it into the creation of her very own course. In October 2020, the world saw her debut as a Chessable author as her highly successful (and verbose)¹  Chessable course on the Nimzo Indian defense, titled The Fierce Nimzo-Indian, was released.

I first met Maaike soon after I joined Chessable. We started collaborating and working on the same projects and I was immediately impressed – not only with her thoroughness, precision and work ethic, but also with her patience, friendliness and sense of humour.

We immediately found the common language and developed a very good relationship based on mutual respect and appreciation.

In all sincerity, Maaike is one of the nicest and friendliest people I have encountered and I am happy she is not only my colleague, but also a friend – and am therefore really looking forward to this interview!

Maaike Keetman as a Chess Player

Q: Hi Maiike and welcome to Chessentials, it is really nice and exciting to have you here! First of all, since I am not well-versed in Dutch names, would you mind sharing how did you get your name? Does it have any deeper meaning?

A: Maiike doesn’t have a deeper meaning however, Maaike is the Dutch/Frisian (an area in the Netherlands where they also have their own dialect) version of Maria.

Q: In the interview for Chessable Blog you have already talked about how you got involved in chess ² and you mentioned you started playing chess after your brother started playing it. But I haven’t realized who actually taught you the rules? Was it your brother, your parents or were you some sort of self-learning prodigy?

A: My parents did (mainly my father). We read many books together when I was young, as my English wasn’t good enough yet to understand it all, so he helped me read them.

Q: Was the fear of being unable to beat your parents also the reason you decided against learning checkers? Or were you born as a true chess elitist and always considered checkers as an inferior game?

A: I always was more fascinated by chess – somehow, the fact that there is only one (okay, perhaps two, when you „promote“ your piece) piece made it seem so boring compared to chess. I’ll admit that in my own country, checkers is reasonably popular (less than chess, but we have had many world champions) so it would definitely have been a logical choice for me – but chess was just much more inspiring for me.

Q: Okay, okay, you very soon joined a chess club? What happened next? When did you start playing tournaments? Did you have any trainers? When did you first realize you might be gifted for the game?

A: Yes, quite early! Soon I played my first tournament, the Noord-Holland (area in the Netherlands where I’m from) championship under 8 when I was 6. This was the qualifier for the national championship U8. As I was the only girl, I automatically qualified – but I ultimately skipped the tournament to perform in a ballet show… luckily, I soon realized I had zero talent for ballet, but that the chess was going much better! So the year after, I did play the national championship and made second place total (and girl’s champion).

(A photo of young Maaike with a Harry Potter book. Note: All photos were provided by Maaike from her personal archive.)

Q: In the Chessable interview, you also mentioned you studied the Step method, a special chess teaching method devised by Dutch authors that has been recently gaining some recognition? Would you mind sharing your experience with it? What are some of the advantages and disadvantages of using it with young players compared to other more conventional methods (books + analysis) or modern methods (Chessbase + engines)?

A: I personally really loved it! In Dutch chess clubs, almost every child learns from that method, I think. It is very methodical and therefore leaves little gaps in the knowledge of patterns – in the category of tactics especially. There is an instruction book for the teacher, and exercise books for the pupils: a basic one, but also 2 other ones with even more exercises. To make it more fun for the kids, usually, one „step“ book is covered in a year and there are exams at the end when you can get a sort of degree and a grade for how well you did.

I enjoyed solving exercises so much, that I would usually go through all of the books multiple times. I even made a game out of it with myself, that I would use a timer and try to solve a whole book as fast as I could! I truly believed this helped my pattern recognition a lot and I think that tactics is the area of chess where I’m strongest currently as well. These days, Chessable is perfect for such ways of training, but back then I of course had never heard of space repetition – I just tremendously enjoyed it!

As for conventional/modern: in the Netherlands, this is considered conventional but at a later age/higher level, I think that learning from books and especially analyzing your own games and learning from your mistakes is very useful to improve.

Q: How successful were you as a player in your youth? How were you faring in your age group on the national level? Did you play a lot of international events (in terms of European Youth events, etc.)?

A: I was usually at the top of my age group, especially when I was young. I already mentioned the second place overall U8, and I had the same result the year later. From the age of 10, the championships are split in my country, with separate categories for boys and girls. In the U13 girl’s championship, I became the national champion. After that, I always played in the open category where I was usually the only girl. My best result there was a fourth-place U15.

I did have some international results as well: when I was 9, I played my first European Youth Championship and had an average performance. In total I played in 5 different European Youth Championships (2008, 2009, 2012, 2015, 2016) and usually played in the (sub)-top, often fighting for top 10 and getting shared 2nd in 2015 (see next question!). I also played in the World Youth Championship in 2015.

Q: You have mentioned one of your greatest successes is the shared 2nd place in the U16 category at the European Youth Championship 2015 in Poreč, though. Can you describe a bit how did your tournament go? What was your daily routine? What were you feeling like when you finally climbed the podium?

A: This is quite a crazy story actually! I had won the first 2 rounds, and then in the third round, all was going alright. However, at some point during the game, my chair broke!! The arm rests broke off, which hurt me a bit but was mainly very distracting (also I felt very embarrassed for breaking something, as this happens to me a lot…). I played very badly but somehow managed to draw an endgame an exchange down. The day after I also drew, but in round  5 I lost to the number 1 on rating, Stavroula Tsolakidou (now an IM). So it wasn’t going smoothly at all.

Luckily, I managed to score 2,5 out of 3 from the next games and was on 5,5 out of 8. In the last round, I faced the number 2 on rating who already had 6,5 points. It is worth noting that there was additional pressure here, since my roommate, Anna-Maja Kazarian, was in fact leading our group! ³

If I would win, she would win the title. After a tense game, I managed to win, Anna-Maja became champion and I got shared second – naturally, a very happy moment for me and the whole Dutch delegation :)! ⁴ The following (embarrassing) picture shows how happy I was…

(A photo from the final ceremony of the tournament. Anna-Maja Kazarian is to the far left)

As for the routine, I was coached by the strongest Dutch female player, GM Zhaoqin Peng who helped me prepare every day and also trained with me and the rest of our small group (usually at those international championships, coaches have 4 of the Dutch players and will have training/prep sessions with them) which was very valuable for me. I also really love the social aspects of those international tournaments, so I definitely wasn’t just focused on the chess, and really enjoyed being a tourist and swimming a lot, as well as playing games with the other Dutchies.

Q: As a side note – quick impression of Croatia and Croats? Can we boast our country and people contributed to your good result?

A: Well, the great hotel definitely helped! The food was truly amazing and put me in a very good mood. I remember it was around 20 mins walking to the playing hall from our hotel, which was perfect: the Croatian weather is lovely! The scenery from the bus also seemed amazing, so definitely a good impression of the country.

However, my trophy had the word „chess“ misspelled, so perhaps the Croatian people didn’t make a perfect impression on me…

Q: A year later, you also became a member of the Dutch National Female Team at Baku Olympiad 2016. How did you qualify and get this opportunity? Who were the other team members?

A: I was quite lucky to get this opportunity. I did not qualify or anything, but my rating was rising and I believe they wanted to have a mix of experienced and young and upcoming players, so I was selected as the reserve board! I was really really excited, of course. The other members were the very strong players GM Zhaoqin Peng, WGM Anne Haast and IM Tea Lanchava, who have all won the national championship at some point, as well as the already mentioned Anna-Maja Kazarian.

Q: What was it like to play in the Olympiad and represent your country? Were you impressed or inspired? How are you satisfied with your result?

A: Highly inspired, yes! It was a very unique atmosphere. Thanks to our very strong men’s team with Anish Giri, we were in the hotel with all of the top countries and it was highly interesting to see all of those players in a casual atmosphere. Usually, you just see them behind the board, all suited up, but now people were wearing sport’s clothes, just casually chatting with their team members (or one particular country stood out to me for the fact that their members would all sit at separate tables and not talk at all).

It was really cool to be part of that! About my result we can be very short: it was disappointing. But if I ever get the chance to be on the team again, I’m highly motivated to do better!

Q: It is also well-known that Olympiad is rich in off-the-board events (who doesn’t know of the (in)famous Bermuda party). Do you have any memorable (or not so memorable, if you catch my drift) stories to tell? What was your impression of the top players and Grandmasters when you got to see them in a less formal environment?

A: I have plenty, but as may expect, many are not suitable to be put here on the internet I did have one funny conversation at the prize ceremony, where I was sitting close to Baadur Jobava, and he asked me „I can’t even remember who won last year, do you?“ and in fact, no one around us seems to know! I guess that’s how it goes when there are so many tournaments…

I also remember that the Chinese women would celebrate a win by eating KFC, a ritual I very much support!

(Maaike as a part of the Dutch Olympiad team 2016. From left to right: WGM Anne Haast, GM Peng Zhaoqin, IM Tea Lanchava, Maaike and WIM Anna-Maja Kazarian)

Q: A look at your rating graph reveals it was precisely in 2016 that you achieved your peak rating of 2254 (December 2016).

Even though there is a lot of variation subsequently (presumably caused by K40 rating?) and even though you did reach a very similar rating a year later, it is very chessplayery to try to conclude anything on the basis of rating, so let me try – would you say you played your best chess in that period? That you were at the peak of your form?

A: I think that in general, I played much worse than I do these days. Especially my opening play has improved a lot since, as that was quite a weak point of me back then.

Q: Alas, starting from late 2017, a certain drop in rating, followed by a period of stagnation in upper 2100 spheres, which lasts to this day, is apparent. Would you mind sharing your perspective on this?

Is there a certain correlation between the work you put in the game and your playing strength and that god damn number? Or is it a pure coincidence that doesn’t reflect the true state of affairs?

A: I don’t think this is a coincidence at all. As I just mentioned, I think I play better these days, but there is a very logical explanation: between October 2016 and September 2017, I took a gap year where I worked 3 days a week at New in Chess (more on that later) and would devote a lot of time to chess on other days.

Being in this mindset obviously helps a lot when you play a tournament, and I would often perform well. I also played on a very regular basis. In September 2017 I went back to University to pursue a degree in Econometrics, which is considered a very challenging subject. That meant that I could devote a lot less time on chess, and whenever I did have a tournament, my results would often be mixed as I sometimes felt too tired to play.

That said, when I did feel energized, I manage to achieve some good results – for example, I did not score any norms in 2016 or 2017 (although I was often very close), but in 2018 I made my first WIM norm in Barcelona and in 2019 I managed to win the WIM Arisan Chess Ladies tournament, scoring my second norm. In both cases, I scored a half-point extra than needed!

So when I’m on form, I do believe I can play better than I did in the past. Sadly, when I lack focus, I will have some bad losses and drop a lot of rating – for example in the Dutch league, which is just on a Saturday and you don’t know your opponent beforehand. That lack of preparation and not the full tournament mindset often costs me rating points, as I have suffered quite some losses there in recent years.

Q: What is the current state of your game? You did mention in the Chessable interview you don’t work as much on chess, but that you still train daily. How many hours do you devote to chess training? What do you do?

A: Because of Covid, I haven’t played since March and I find it hard to say how strong I would currently play, as I definitely lack some rhythm now! That said, I love chess and try to train as much as I can besides my job and studies and usually study something every day. This can be many different things: openings, strategy, tactics, you name it.

Q: I know that you have a very ambitious long-term goal of becoming an International Master (and a short-term goal of becoming a Woman International Master). Is becoming an IM more like a future idea, or an actual dream/goal you are definitely going to try to commit to once the Covid crisis is over and things get back to normal?

I am asking because I also have a goal of becoming a FM, but I am not sure if I am ready to really commit to it (spend time and money, experience the agony of defeats and potential setbacks, etc). Since recently more and more people are declaring ambitious chess ⁵ goals, I am curious to hear your thoughts on this topic?

Do you think there are any inherent dangers of setting ambitious long-term goals or do you consider it helpful to maintain focus and direction? ⁶

A: I have always dreamed of becoming an IM, ever since I was little (never GM, actually). I definitely want to commit to achieving this, but indeed, where to find the time? My motivation dropped a bit with the whole Covid situation as there are no OTB tournaments, but when that is over and I have graduated, I expect to have a lot more energy again and am really excited to see how far I can come!

I am ambitious in many ways, and the thought of setbacks doesn’t really scare me. However, you of course do have a point that there can be some dangers to having (too) ambitious plans – if things don’t work out in the short term, it can be very disappointing.

There is also the small issue that when you have achieved your goal, there suddenly is this „emptiness“ and you don’t know what to do anymore. I think this is quite often seen, and that people who get FM/IM/GM drop some points soon after, as the motivation has dropped.

That said, I do think it can be very motivating to have a certain goal and work towards it in small steps, as long as it’s realistic. This is of course very cliché, but I think it’s important to not only think about the goal but also the journey, and just enjoy that as much as possible. Then it should be fine!

Maaike Keetman as a Chessable Manager

Q: Okay, I think I have poked enough about your chess career. Let’s switch the topic and talk about your Chessable career. You mentioned in the Chessable interview you had been working for New In Chess before you switched to Chessable. The million-dollar question is – how did you start working for New in Chess?

A: As is often the case, I was lucky and had some connections! My trainer at the time, Wim Andriessen, was actually the founder of New in Chess! So I managed to get some small chores there from a very early age, I believe I was 13 or 14.

Usually, during the summers, I would do some work, or just throughout the year as my high school was about 5 minutes biking from their office. I would often go once a week after school to do some work. In October 2016, I started working there on a more regular basis, working 3 days a week there for 9 months.

When I went back to university, it became less regular again, but I kept working some occasional hours.

(Maaike in good company – with GM Daniil Dubov at Tata Steel 2020)

Q: When you say you „switched“ to fully work for Chessable, what exactly does it mean? Could you elaborate a bit on how did this transition exactly happen?

A: In the summer of 2018, I was working at NIC again for the full summer. One day, we had a visitor – David Kramaley, the CEO of Chessable! He showed me the site and there was an agreement that I would start importing New in Chess books to the Chessable platform.

This meant that essentially, I was doing work for both companies. I was very fascinated by Chessable and saw great potential there (keep in mind, the site was nowhere as big then as it is now!) and in February 2019, I decided to only work for Chessable and I’m still very happy about that, as I love it here!

Q: If I am not mistaken, some of your family members have worked for NIC back then (and they still do)? How did they react when it transpired you will be switching companies?

A: Yes, in fact, my mother, sister and brother all work there until this very day! Although admittedly, my brother only started working there more after I had left. We just talk about work as little as possible, and that is fine by me.

Q: Okay, after you joined Chessable, what exactly was your job description? Would you mind explaining to readers what Chessable exactly is and what were you doing? What does it mean to „import a book“?

A: I have always been part of the content team. In fact, I was one of the first members of that department – these days, we have a lot of staff members who focus on creating and improving our content, but back then it was much smaller.

Any Chessable course doesn’t appear out of anywhere, but a staff member (or author) has created it based on the available (pgn) files. This is often a lengthy process, editing and formatting the course so it is suitable for the platform and it’s famous MoveTrainer technology that helps you study and train all exercises/variations.

One important thing is that before publication, a course always gets „beta tested“. This means that actual users will try out the course and give feedback on it, which the staff member would then incorporate.

This communicating with people and making a product better together was something that I always really enjoyed, as it ensures that work is never boring or repetitive!

Q: How have your responsibilities and role in the company changed in the prior two years before you got your current position? Could you summarize in one paragraph your journey from being an importer to becoming a Publishing Manager?

A: I was an importer for quite a long time: if you count my time as an importer for NIC courses as well, I did it for almost 2 years. This was because the company was less big, so there was less organizational structure necessary, and because I was only a freelancer. In the last week of April, I pitched the idea of making my own Chessable course (more on that later!) and coincidentally (or not…?), 3 days later, I was asked if I wanted to join Chessable full time.

I said yes, and because I had a lot of experience (keep in mind that most people only joined the team in 2020, including this blog’s owner) I was made co-head of the Content Quality Assurance. This was a lot of fun, and I had a lot more communication with authors which I really enjoyed. To improve the standards of the content, the Quality staff members will give authors feedback on their files, and also give the importers feedback on the final course on Chessable.

This is getting longer than one paragraph but at the end of August, Chessable had grown a lot more, and I was asked if I wanted to be Publishing Manager to help manage the content team! I did not need to think about it for long, and of course, said yes, and have been enjoying it for 3 months now.

(Maaike with the Dutch Chessable gang, back in the day when hanging out without a mask was still a thing…)

Q: What exactly does a Publishing Manager do? How different is the job in your current role in contrast to what you did in the past?

A: There is a variety of things, but one of the key things is that we manage the publishing schedule. This means that we are in charge of communicating with authors and planning their courses, making sure everything is published on time.

It also means that we manage the importers and Quality staff members, as they are creating the content. Besides that, there is a variety of other things, such as communicating with new potential authors, creating contracts for them, but also planning sales and many other things.

A key difference is that I have to talk a lot with a lot of different people and thus have a lot of meetings, whereas in the past there was a lot of manual, actual importing work. But as you can probably tell from this (very!) lengthy interview, I don’t mind talking at all!

Q: How does it sound to be a „Manager at 21“? Were you surprised when you were provided with the opportunity? Do you ever look back and feel proud about everything you have achieved in your professional life (and not only professional life) in such a short span?

A: Haha, I usually don’t say that out loud, it sounds so weird! I have to admit that I was surprised, yes. I was very happy as the co-head of Quality Assurance and as I was only doing that for a few months, I didn’t expect to get promoted so soon. But I’m very happy to have gotten the opportunity!

I usually prefer to look forward and am excited about the future!

Q: Last but not least – allow me to put you on the spot right now, but you know I can’t resist . Gun to your head, what would you say is the best thing and what would you say is the worst thing when it comes to working for Chessable?

A: Well, I truly love chess, so being able to work in that world is amazing! And I love everything about the company. I guess that forces me to say that the best thing is the amazing coworkers

As I like it all, the worst thing is probably something that can be both good and bad, and is probably relatable for a lot of people in this Covid-era: the working from home and not seeing your colleagues in person.

I personally enjoy the flexibility that working from home gives you, but it can be a bit tricky too: there is a less clear distinction between working hours and free time, so it can be very tempting to keep working until very late (just answering an email here, a message there, and suddenly, it is very late).

(Well, I guess there are easier ways to achieve work-life balance… :D)

Maaike Keetman as a Chessable Author

Q: Apart from being a Chessable employee, you recently also joined the ranks of Chessable authors, as your first Chessable opening course, titled „The Fierce Nimzo-Indian“ was published.

Why did you choose to do a course precisely on Nimzo-Indian and not, say, the French Defence, which is also an opening you have been playing in your youth and in which you have great expertise?

A: Well, I pitched several ideas I had. I really wanted to do something on the French Defense, but then we had just signed Anish Giri up to make a repertoire on that opening (which is really excellent by the way)! So, that didn’t seem to be a very good choice anymore. However, I always struggled when facing 1.d4 and thought others may have the same issue, and I had been very happy with my Nimzo-Indian analysis there, so I pitched that idea and it was approved!

I’ll add that it was always my dream to write a chess book (keep in mind that I worked for a publisher for a very long time, so a book was the ultimate goal). However, a Chessable course seemed just as cool, so I was really excited AND nervous to pitch that! I postponed it for a very long time, but ultimately am really happy that I took the leap.

(Artwork for Maaike’s course. Let the Tiger roar!)

Q: In the Chessable interview you mentioned it took you 5 months to create that repertoire, which already speaks volumes about the difficulty of creating a Chessable course (or any chess book, for that matter). Could you talk about the specifics in greater detail? What was the process like? Which steps does it consist of? What caused you the most difficulties?

A: Yes! I just pitched it as „b6 Nimzo“ but after lots of analyzing, ultimately used none of my old analysis and made it all new from scratch. I think it could have been done a lot faster, but I had 2 very specific things in mind for this repertoire which made it a lot more challenging.

First of all, I wanted it to be very dynamic. It is much easier to just follow your engine and try to find positions where Black can draw. But I was very keen on creating unbalanced positions, not aiming for a draw but where Black can really fight and try to win!

This of course does not mean that Black will be better from the opening, but just that there are more chances for both sides to get a real game. This meant I often had to redo analysis if the positions were too boring or if White had too many options to force a draw, so it took quite long to find lines that suited my purpose. Ultimately I succeeded quite well with it I think, or at least users have told me that they get very fun games with the lines, so that makes me really happy!

Second of all, I find it really important to truly understand why something is played. As I have seen so many different courses, there is one thing that comes up almost every time: users who want more explanations and want to understand what to do after the opening moves have ended. So, that’s what I gave them!

I believe it ultimately boiled down to over 180K words which is very, very big. As this number did not immediately mean something to me, I googled that the first Harry Potter book has a little over 75K words. So my course is almost 2,5 times the first Harry Potter book! That truly shocked me, and you can imagine it takes a while to write that much.

Q: You also went on to record the video. Even though you haven’t had a lot of experience in front of the camera, you seemed very natural. Were you nervous at all before you started filming? How did you manage to maintain your composure and be so relaxed?

A: Soooo nervous!! In school, I was always terrified when I had to do a presentation, so I was very worried it would be really awkward and everyone would hate it, but I thought it would be good for me to try and see how it goes. And in fact, after the first day where all technical details were taken care of and I got a bit used to the process, it went quite smoothly.

It probably helped a lot that I was at the professional studio, as I only had to focus on the recording itself, and not on how to set up the equipment and such. Whenever I started a chapter, I would just get really excited and happy to talk about the lines that I spend so much time on! So all the nerves would just fade away as soon as I started talking.

I learned a lot too so hopefully next course, it will go even better!

Q: Do you have any ideas/plans for subsequent repertoires? Since Fierce Nimzo-Indian only covers 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 move order, are there any plans to complement it with another repertoire against other White 1.d4 „shenanigans“? There are rumors your knowledge of Jobaava London might need some refreshment.

A: Definitely! In fact, I have already started working on it, so stay tuned

Q: If you got to give advice to all potential Chessable authors (and/or some existing ones), what would it be?

A: For potential authors: to not be afraid of the whole process. It may seem long and perhaps scary, but I enjoyed working on the material so much and it was so amazing when it got published! So I can definitely recommend making a course.

As for the actual creation: as a publishing manager, I often give advice to authors on how to improve the content, and I think one key thing is to keep the target audience in mind. The average user will not be a top player, so it is important to include lines they will encounter often and explain things that may be obvious to you but can be very valuable for the users. So the key advice is: don’t make it too difficult!

Maaike Keetman As Female (Chess) Ambassador

Q: There is one more chess-related topic I would like to talk about and then expand on it – your role with the Chess Queens organization. Would you mind explaining how was this organization founded and what is your role there?

A: This is a Dutch foundation, that was founded almost 6 years ago by the top players of the country; the 5 founders all played in the national team at the time. I will admit that I was not involved from the beginning (as I was only 15), but 1,5 years after that, somewhere in 2016, I was invited to be a part of it as a „chess princess“, so basically a slightly younger version of it

The aim of the foundation is twofold: to improve the level at the top, and promoting chess for women on a broader level. These days, the second goal is the most important and we are mainly targeting young girls.

In January 2019, the foundation expanded and now we have 7 members (all called chess queens). Currently, I’m the treasurer.

Q:  The main focus of the organization is inspiring young girls to play chess. How exactly do you go about achieving this goal?

A: One thing we do is organize tournaments for the girls (see picture). Covid had made things more difficult, but we are organizing online tournaments for girls now and we have for example a grand prix series, currently on its third season already. Those include a tournament on Sunday morning for girls under 13, and one in the afternoon that is open to all women but mainly focused for girls under 18.

Several members of the foundation are also very active in giving training to young girls.

(Maaike: This is a picture from our OTB girls tournament in 2019, which was a big success!)

Q: Is there anything that could be done on a much broader scale (chess clubs, chess federations, FIDE, regular politicans and governments) that could entice more girls to play chess? If yes, do you have any ideas about what?

A: I think that with the Netflix series, the Queen’s Gambit, there is a lot of attention for women in chess right now. If FIDE or other federations/organizations can capture that and turn it into something real, I think we can definitely get more women to play chess. However, doing so is definitely very challenging.

Q: How welcome did you feel in chess playing halls throughout your career. How often did you have negative experiences connected to the hidden or not-so-hidden forms of sexism? How many times did you experience situations which made you extremely uncomfortable? Are „creeps“ exceptions to the rule, or rather the rule itself, in your experience?

A: I did always feel welcome; no one ever told me I was not allowed to participate somewhere. However, sexism is of course very present. At a young age, people would often not take me very seriously. Now at an older age, that is different, but still, when men lose to a female player, they tend to make more excuses for why they lost, instead of just admitting that someone played well.

There are definitely „creeps“ and it’s almost customary to encounter one or more at every tournament, but that means that the rest of the people are nice so I wouldn’t call it a rule. But it is definitely something that happens regularly and it can definitely discourage women from playing.

Q: What can an average, normal chess player do to make chess playing tournament halls more welcoming toward females and to make one „small step“ toward achieving the desired changes? ⁷

A: I guess that last comment just says it all I think just treating women, in the same way, would help; so just take the game equally seriously and no derogatory comments or excuses. But I don’t think such a culture can easily change.

Q: Considering everything you achieved in the chess world and in a professional sense, you are a great role model for many young girls (even though – knowing you – you probably haven’t thought of yourself this way). What would your message be to any girl thinking about entering the chess world or fulfilling her dreams in a professional (or any other) sense?

A: Don’t let anyone stop you! If you’re passionate about something and you have the possibility, pursue it! If you have passion, you can achieve anything

Maaike Keetman off-the-board

Q: Okay Maiike, I think we have talked quite a lot about chess and plugged Chessable so far :D. Let’s conclude this interview with something not strictly chess-related.

First, the most important question of them all: Ketchup or Mayo?

A:. Ketchup, of course! Mayo is one of the most disgusting things on the planet! ⁸

Apart from doing everything mentioned above, you are also currently in the process of getting your degree. What are you studying and how is it going?

A: I mentioned Econometrics before, but that proved too challenging for me (given that I liked to also work and play chess), so I switched to Economics and Business Economics, where I’m focusing on the latter one and majoring in Finance. I really love numbers, so that’s a good fit for me! I hope to graduate and receive my bachelor’s degree in the Summer of 2021, although I’ll admit that studying in the Covid era is a bit different.

Q: Listening to you, one can’t help wonder how you manage to be so active on so many fronts? What is your secret when it comes to handling all these obligations?

A: I truly enjoy the things I do! If you enjoy something, it seems to cost way less energy.

Q: What do you like to do in your free time? What are some of your hobbies outside of chess?

A: Eating ice cream, cooking/baking, reading, Netflixing, taking walks, playing board games, (online) shopping, cuddling cats and just talking to friends! Oh, and I have been trying to learn Russian in my free time, although I put that on hold for now.

Q: Do you do also do any physical training? Any sport?

A: I no longer practice any sports (I briefly practiced judo at some point) but I love walking, running and just general fitness exercises. I think it is very important to be physically fit as chess games are much more exhausting than people think! Being able to concentrate for hours definitely requires a good fitness level.

Q: Are you interested in sport in general? Do you watch/follow any sports? ⁹

A: Not at all, surprisingly. I think many chess players are, but I never watch any sports. Perhaps that is why I have so much time for other things

Q: I do recall you mentioning Netflix quite often in the past, though. Do you have any good TV shows you watched recently? Or any old favorites to recommend?

A: So many! I mainly watch detectives or thrillers, although comedy is of course always good if you are tired and just want something easy. There are so many good ones, I always loved watching Dexter, I recently watched the first season of Bron (Danish detective, The Bridge in English) which was really good and these days I’m watching Lucifer again.

Q: What about books? Made any progress on that Mythos Trilogy? Any other good books you read recently you would like to recommend?

A: I have started on Troy, have to catch up with you of course! I have always loved to read, in the past I mostly did fiction but now almost exclusively non-fiction (although hard to say which category Mythos is…). I love reading about things such as history, mathematics, economics, science and psychology. Some of my favorite books are :

• Freakonomics by Levitt and Dubner,
• How Not to be Wrong by Jordan Ellenberg,
• and I also really enjoyed the book The Unexpected Truth About Animals by Lucy Cooke

Q: If you could invite three persons to dinner, whom would you invite and why?

A: Maxime Vachier-Lagrave. And maybe just Vjeko and our other publishing manager Juan Almaguer, as we always have a lot of fun together! ¹⁰

Q: Do you have a life motto? If yes, which is it?

A: Not really, although in Dutch I like to say, „rustig aan, komt goed“ which is something like, relax take it easy. Given how much there is to do often, it is usually helpful to take a deep breath and just be calm!

Q: Finally – allow me to conclude the interview with the most important question of them all – on a scale from 1 to Vjekoslav Nemec, how chessplayery would you say you are? What is the most chessplayery trait you have? ¹¹

A: This is probably your hardest question! I probably have to be honest and say that I am closer to Vjekoslav level than 1, but I still like to think I rate lower than you…

I have a tendency to make things more complex than necessary, which is very chessplayery. But there are countless typical traits, I’m afraid.

Q: Okay Maaike! I would like to thank you for taking the time and demonstrating the true extent of your „verbosity“ by completing this marathon interview! I wish you all the best on all fronts and I wish you to fulfill your goals in the future – I am holding my fingers crossed that those chess titles start falling like ripe apples soon. 

Looking forward to releasing this interview and collaborating a lot more in the future!

Now, if you could stop fooling around and actually do some meaningful work, it would be appreciated.

Those emails ain’t going to send themselves!

A:

The post Chess Author, Player, Manager: Maaike Keetman Interview appeared first on Chessentials.

The first part of the interview, in which we talk about his early years, his adulthood and time in college and how he got into poker, is available here.

Ben Johnson as a Chess Teacher/Educator

Q: At the end of it all, you decided to get back to your former love – Chess Teaching. During the years you were playing poker and trading, you didn’t do much of that, right?

A:  I was not coaching or even very active in chess from 2003-2015, although many of my best friends were still from the chess world.

In the early poker years, I worked with a former student for free, and I played the occasional tournament, but didn’t study or take it seriously and my results in chess weren’t good. Throughout those years, though, I always fondly recalled my years teaching chess, and I always felt like I could be happy doing it for a living again if circumstances warranted it. (I was right about this, as I do enjoy teaching chess)

I didn’t return to teaching chess until 2015, first on a part-time basis while I still traded, then closer to full time in 2016 when I quit trading.

Q: From the outside, it seems that chess teaching is a big thing in the United States. So many schools, colleges and organizations…How many people make a living out of chess teaching? How difficult and lucrative it is?

A: Good questions! It is very hard to guess accurately, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there are 200-300 full-time chess teachers in the US and many more part-time. For most chess players the most challenging aspects of teaching are going to be classroom management/communication-related.

As for how lucrative, basically no one gets rich teaching chess, but scholastic teachers can make a pretty good hourly wage during the hours they are most in demand, which is primarily after school hours, nights and weekends. The problem can be that this schedule is not very conducive to having a family, because that’s when your wife and kids are home. So in summation, chess teaching is a great job for a young person without a family, but as you get older you have to be very deliberate in planning a professional life that is compatible with other life goals.

Q: As far as I understood, you focus on teaching groups of young kids. Can you describe how an average session looks like? How do you keep their attention without being too pushy? How do you keep the balance between being serious and being fun?

A: Most of my afterschool chess clubs are 75 minutes long. I typically teach something very basic for the first 20 minutes, ranging from how the rook moves to what a pin is. Then they do related puzzles for about 10 minutes, and then they play chess. It is very important to vary the activities, especially with younger kids.

You learn to teach through trial and error! When I was hired by Chess in the Schools I was a terrible teacher, probably 1000 strength. As for the balance between serious and fun, I think chess teachers should be fun. There are a few reasons:

• We are teaching a game
• The kids have been in school all day, so it’s a bit unfair to them to be a taskmaster after school too.
• It keeps them engaged

The challenge can be that if you make too many jokes or are too care-free the students can get a bit silly.

Q: What is the one thing you find the most enjoyable about working with kids?

A: They generally have contagious happiness, as they have not yet been beaten down by life.

Ben Johnson as a Chess Podcaster

Q: Okay, let’s talk about the thing that made you famous – Perpetual Chess Podcast :D.

On your about page, you already hinted at how the idea of a chess podcast came to life. Can you wrap it up and/or elaborate a bit further for the readers?

What motivated me to start the podcast? There are several reasons.

1. I was and am a huge podcast junkie, and couldn’t believe the lack of offerings about chess. (I have to give a shout out to Macauley Peterson, Lawrence Trent and Simon Williams of the Full English Breakfast though- at the time I dreamed up Perpetual Chess, their podcast had gone dormant, and they had a different format than the long form interview one that I envisioned for Perpetual Chess)
2. This reason is a bit more personal, but at the time I started the podcast I did not feel very fulfilled professionally. I had just gotten back into teaching chess to kids in Pittsburgh PA after many years of playing poker, and then trading stocks.  I enjoyed the teaching, but it can be lonely since you are in a different school every day and in Pittsburgh, I didn’t really have any work colleagues. Although my home family life was a reasonably happy one, my wife and I were sleep-deprived and spread a lot thinner financially than we had been before kids)

My feeling of unfulfillment also felt exacerbated by my having young kids at home. I felt like I was surrounded by kids every moment (with the notable exception of my wife), and although I am lucky to like kids, this was a stark difference from the prior 12 years spent primarily working alone in front of my computer and socializing with adults.

The idea of starting a chess interview podcast to me solved two problems at once- it gave me the chance to talk to adults (brilliant ones at that, and about a subject I love), and it was likely to expand my connections in the chess world and help me feel less isolated. Needless to say, I am very happy that I made this decision and forever grateful to my wife that she gave me the space to invest the time and money necessary to pursue this project.

Q: That is fascinating! It is not the first time I hear that a good idea was developed because someone wanted to solve his own problems.

But many people never go beyond the step of thinking of an idea. How long did it take you to start implementing it in real life? Did you have the equipment? Who made the website? Did you have a producer at the very beginning?

Can you tell us how the podcast actually came to life?

A: For about a year I had the idea for this podcast, and even kept a “notes” file on my phone where I brainstormed potential names and guests for the show. I also would frequently check iTunes to see if someone else had started a chess podcast. Part of me wanted someone else to do it, so that I wouldn’t have to think about it anymore!

I am not particularly tech savvy, so what kept me from doing it was not knowing how any of the back-end stuff like recording and uploading worked. That problem was solved, by chance, when I saw a tweet from a finance guy I follow on Twitter, Patrick O Shaughnessy. He was singing the praises of his podcast producer, Mathew Passy and recommending him for anyone thinking of starting a podcast. I reached out to Mathew and he helped me take it from there.

Q: And so it took off. I have listened to the very first episode with Greg Shahade the other day and I kinda got the feeling I was listening to two high-school friends who were surprised themselves that they are talking about chess and recording it (I don’t mean it in a bad way – I died from laughter).

Looking back, what do you think about the first steps? Did you have your doubts? Were you afraid no one would ever listen to it?

A: I was pretty confident that there was an audience for a chess podcast- because I wanted one myself. What I was more concerned with was that someone more qualified than me should be the one doing it! Listening to those early interviews makes me cringe, but I wasn’t going to learn to podcast without just doing it.

Q: But okay, you have come very far since. 131 episodes later you have spoken to a number of world-class GMs, chess content creators and businessman. You have also gained a decent number of Patreon supporters.

Did you even think at the beginning podcasting might become more than a hobby? A profession? A business?

I would be lying if I did not admit that I also saw creating a chess podcast as a business opportunity. As a big podcast fan, I had seen how creating a podcast had changed the life of Marc Maron in the comedy world, and of Nate Duncan in the NBA world, just to name two of my favorite podcasters.

Chess obviously is not as popular as show business or the NBA, so I didn’t expect success on that scale, but I figured that at minimum, Perpetual Chess could be a decent, gratifying side-hustle that augmented my teaching, and thanks primarily to the Perpetual Chess Patreon supporters, that is what it has grown to be as of now.

Q: How many people are working on the podcast? Have you reached the point where the income is higher than the expenses?

A: It is just two people- me and my producer. Mathew Passy. Without Mathew, the podcast would not be possible. He does the editing, plus the troubleshooting on any tech issues I encounter. I am happy to report that thanks to the Patreon supporters of Perpetual Chess it is reasonably profitable. As I have said on the podcast, it undoubtedly has the lowest hourly rate of all my work (chess and poker both), but I enjoy doing it, and if the revenue continues to grow it should be sustainable for a while.

Q:  You always seem excellently prepared for every interview. How much time does it take you to do so? How much does it take you to promote it on iTunes and social media?

Can you take us through the process of recording an episode? From the preparations to the very interview and the (post) production?

A: Thanks! I take pride in preparing as much as I can for every interview because it is the aspect of producing a good show that I feel like I have the most control over. I know that there are plenty of stronger chess players than me and lots of people know more chess history, so being fully prepared for and focused during the interview is the least I can do.

As for how the podcast gets made. First I try to chase down a guest. Sometimes this can take one email, sometimes I feel like everyone I ask is ignoring me. Also sometimes someone is initially responsive, but then disappears. This is frustrating because it makes it hard to sequence guests and not a miss a show or overbook with the limited amount of time for interviews that I have. Scheduling guests is my least favorite part of creating Perpetual Chess.

Once a guest is scheduled, I alert my Patreon supporters in case they want to submit questions, then begin research. If its an author I try to read at least one book of theirs, usually the most recent. If not, I scour the internet for other interviews or check out whatever project they are doing. I probably average about 5 hours of prep per guest, but it depends a lot on who it is and how much they have written. The good news is that it often doesn’t feel like work, because I am reading about chess and learning new things. Recording the interviews is my absolute favorite part of doing the podcast, and makes it all worth it. When I am talking to the likes of Gata Kamsky or Judit Polgar and they share a story or tip that I know my listeners will enjoy I really feel like I should pinch myself at times.

Once the interview is recorded (on Skype). I send it off to my editor/producer with any edits and he makes the edits, adjust sound levels if necessary and posts it be released on my hosting page when ready. Once it is ready for upload, I relisten to the interview and post show notes and links. This adds another 60-90 minutes to the amount of time it takes, but I do think it greatly improves the product.

Then when it is released, on Tuesdays, it takes about an hour to do the release stuff. I tweet about it, which takes annoyingly long to compose due to Twitter’s character limits. There is also posting it on the webpage, sharing to the email list, via MailChimp, and sharing in the Facebook group. This stuff takes about an hour in total, but is relatively mindless.

Q: Do you have some episodes you are particularly proud or fond of?

A: So many that it really is hard to list. Not because of anything that I did, but just because chess has so many great personalities with awesome stories to tell. I have noticed that experienced chess authors are amongst my favorite guests. This makes me think of guests like GMs Genna Sosonko and Jacob Aagaard, and IMs John Watson and John Donaldson.

I also felt privileged to get to interview GM Gata Kamsky, as he has such an incredible career and interesting life, and he doesn’t seem to do a lot of long-form interviews.

Q: Do you have any future plans regarding the podcast? Have you defined a specific goal, or are you simply “going with the flow” and waiting to see where it takes you?

A: Definitely “going with the flow,” It is really hard for me to keep putting out an episode per week, so I never seem to find the time to think more big picture. If I had more free time I would focus a lot more on the “macro” aspect of the show, and could think more about stuff like soliciting sponsors, updating the webpage, selling merchandise, making additional content, etc., but as it is, I feel like I just barely get an episode out each week. So I fall back on the content creator’s mantra that if I put out a quality product everything else will take care of itself (someday.)

Q: Apart from Patreon, how else can people support your work?

A: Spreading the word about the podcast is always helpful.

Ben Johnson Off The Board

Q: Okay, last but not least, I would like to find out something about Ben as a person. ¹

I know you are married with two kids. But can you tell us how and when did you meet your wife?

A: My wife and I met through an online dating site in 2008. At the time I was an online poker pro, living in Brooklyn NY. Poker, like chess, has been a predominantly male-dominated field, so it was hard to meet women at times. For any lonely chess players out there, I strongly recommend overcoming your inhibitions and trying online dating.

Q: Did you have a magical pick-up line? Or did you stick to the good old „Hi, I’m Ben?“ 😀

A: Haha. This could be the subject of its own podcast, but let’s say I was better at writing friendly somewhat humorous emails to women I’d never met then I was at approaching them. I suspect this would be true of many chess players.

Q: Since you have a successful track record and since many chess players are struggling in that domain, what would your piece of advice to them be? 😀

A: Hmm, depends on whether you are trying to be a teacher, a content creator, or both. But I think it is generally good advice to pick one thing or one small aspect of a field and try to do it really well and really consistently.

Q: How old are your children? What are their names?

A: They are 6 and 3, a boy and a girl.

Q: Have you started teaching them chess? There is strong evidence one of them is quite incompetent in that field 😀

A: Ha! I teach the chess club at my 6 yr old’s school. So far he prefers “giveaway chess“ aka “suicide chess“ to regular chess, but he does seem to enjoy the social aspect of the chess club.

Q: How do you balance your professional and family obligations? How does an average day in the Johnson family look like?

A: Oh man, it is so hectic. It is hard to balance especially because I am a freelancer. My wife has a demanding full-time job so a lot of the parenting grunt work falls to me, such as getting the kids ready for school, cooking dinner, taking them to music classes, etc.

Q: If someone asked you about a secret to being a good parent, what would you say? What would your advice be to other future (and current) parents?

A: My kids will be able to tell you in 20 years whether I am a good person to answer this, but I can give basically the same advice I did with regard to teaching and content creation- Don’t halfass it!

Q: Apart from chess, poker, podcasting, stocks, TV shows and family, do you do anything else in your free time? ²Do you have any other hobbies?

A: I think you covered all of my interests except for sports. I am a big NBA and Major League Baseball fan. As a native Philadelphia, the 76ers and Phillies are my teams, but I follow the leagues as a whole as well.

Q: I am going to make a random guess here, but I somehow imagine you read a lot. Can you give us a list of your five favorites (non-chess) books of all-time? Or five good books you read recently? ³ 

A: I love reading and was reading 1-2 books per week until my kids were born. Arg!

In my teens and 20s, I read a good amount of fiction- I liked Murakami and Milan Kundera among many others. These days I read mostly non-fiction if/when I have time.

Seth Godin is half motivational writer half marketing wizard, and I love his books and his blog. Recently I have been loving the writing of Scott Galloway who I guess you would call a business writer. I just started reading The Algebra of Happiness and it strikes me as a  great book for a 20 something trying to find him or herself. Scott Galloway also does a free weekly column called No Mercy No Malice that everyone should read.

Both Seth Godin and Scott Galloway have podcasts too, because of the way things work these days.

Also, read everything by Michael Lewis.

Lastly, if you haven’t read Born Standing Up by Steve Martin, an American actor and comedian, you should!

Q: Do you have any intentions of getting back to serious tournament chess at some point?

A: That is a very good question. I do miss competing, but as a competitive person, it would be hard for me to enjoy without feeling like I was in decent playing shape. And in order for that to happen, I would need to spend 5-10 hours a week studying for a solid 3 months, at minimum. That is not happening imminently, unfortunately. But I definitely want to get back in the ring if my professional and family responsibilities ever settle down. Sadly, that may not be until my kids are in college, but chess is always there for you!

Q: Do you have a life motto? If yes, which one is it?

A: As my friend, IM-elect Donny Ariel famously said, “ life is about the quality of your relationships.“

Q: If you could invite three persons to dinner, whom would you invite?

A: Wow, should I be asking someone this on the podcast? Let’s go with Grischuk, Anand and Barack Obama.

Q: Last, but not least, is there a message you’d like to send the readers? Especially to those who don’t know what to do with their life? Who are struggling to find their passion?

A: OK, its gonna be impossible for this not to sound like a cliche. When you are young, without family you should be trying stuff. Quit your job, start a blog, start a YouTube channel- take chances. If you are not sure what your “passion“ is, think back to what interested you as a child. And read a lot!

Q: Phew, we have finally made it to the end. Thank you so much, Ben, on your time and on your effort – the depth and the length of your answers were quite amazing!

It was a real pleasure talking to you and telling your interesting and fascinating story to the broader public.

We wish you all the best in the future and hope for further growth of the Perpetual Chess Podcast audience ⁴!

A: Thanks Vjeko! I feel like anyone who read this much about me should win a prize! Thanks to anyone who read this, and good luck with your chess writing!

Links where you can find more about Ben

Perpetual Chess Podcast Website

Perpetual Chess Podcast Patreon

Perpetual Chess Podcast on Apple Tunes

Ben’s Twitter

Perpetual Chess Podcast Facebook Group

Perpetual Chess Academy

Ben’s Chesscom profile

This is the second part of the interview, in which we talk about Ben’s trading years, his transition back to chess teaching, about Perpetual Chess Podcast and his family.

The first part of the interview, in which we talk about his early years, his adulthood and time in college and how he got into poker, is available here.

The post Educator, teacher, podcaster – Ben Johnson Interview – Part Two appeared first on Chessentials.

The second part of the interview, in which we talk about his trading years, his transition back to chess teaching, about Perpetual Chess Podcast and his family, is available here.

Introduction

Even though the chess world has been full of chess playing websites, book reading apps, computer engines, youtube channels and mediocre blogs ¹ from the start of the digital era, for a long time it was severy lacking in the area of podcasts.

Apart from the Full English Breakfast ², at the end of 2016, there wasn’t a single one out there. This gap was recognized by a former Poker player, trader and nowadays a chess teacher from New Jersey: Ben Johnson.

In December 2016, a first episode of the new Perpetual Chess Podcast was aired and as they say, the rest is history. 131 episodes and 195 patrons later, ³ The Perpetual Chess Podcast has gained a lot of recognition, and won the hearts of chess players worldwide by allowing them insight into the lives and minds of world best chess players, authors and promoters of the game.

A couple of weeks ago, I contacted Ben on a completely unrelated note. ⁴ The mail exchange was extremely pleasant, Ben indeed turned out to be the nice guy he seemed to be in his podcasts. So I ventured to ask him if he would be like to be the man on the other side of the microphone for a change and do an interview for Chessentials.

I am incredibly thankful to him for this. Even though I overdid it with the number of questions ⁵, Ben answered every single one of them – in great detail.

I am very happy he did so – I find his life story fascinating and inspiring. I think there is a lot to learn about chess, life, poker, business and being a decent human being, in general.

Hope you guys will enjoy it as much as I did.

Ben Johnson as a Kid

Q: Hi Ben! It is a pleasure and honor to have you on Chessentials. Since you have a very rich and versatile biography, there is a lot I want to ask you. But since this is a chess blog and you are a chess podcaster, it probably makes sense to start with chess-related questions. Can you tell me when and how you learned to play the game?

A: Thanks for thinking of me, Vjeko! As I mentioned to you via email, I am not sure if anyone will care about my background, but I will spell it all out here just in case.

I was introduced to chess by a family friend at the age of 6, I was immediately taken by it, but back in the stone ages I was one of those people who did not know at that time that chess books and tournaments existed, so I was not exposed to the game again for a long time.

Q: How long did it take you to start playing it „seriously“? How did that happen?

A: At the age of 12 I rediscovered the game when some kids from the just-forming school chess club were playing at lunchtime in the cafeteria. A friend and I approached them, joined the club, and the rest, as they say, is history.

That program – the Masterman Chess Club in Philadelphia PA – went on to win many US Scholastic team championships, with several master level player graduates, along with its most well- known chess alumni, my good friends IM Greg Shahade and WIM Jenn Shahade.

Q: Okay, now I understand why Greg was the very first guest of the podcast and why you announced that you sometimes have great guests, but sometimes you also have Greg during his latest (third) appearance. 😀

Anyway – 12 is a “relatively” late age to start playing chess ⁶, in terms of becoming a World Champion or professional. I can easily imagine a kid losing motivation after being beaten by his peers who have had a head start.

Was this the case with you? Could you already feel a marked difference of level between Greg (and/or other 12-year olds) and yourself? Did you ever get discouraged?

A: I agree that it feels like a late start these days, but that was less the case back then. In my later teenage years, I would often be on the bottom half of the US Chess “Top 50” (now top 100)  lists for my age, so at that time I occasionally regretted having not started playing chess earlier, but mainly I was happy to be enjoying a new hobby.

As for feeling discouraged, I have always thought it was a good thing for me to encounter someone with more chess talent early in life, as it kept me motivated and kept me humble. I think this was particularly helpful when I became a poker pro, as I will likely detail later.

Q: In the end, you not only stuck to chess, but became a fairly decent player. According to your About page on Perpetual Chess Academy, you earned the title of the USCF National Chess Master and reached peak USCF rating of 2279 in 1995 – when you were 18. Considering your late start, it sounds like a great achievement.

Can you briefly take us through that journey? How serious was your approach to the game? Did you have a training routine? How often did you play? How did you balance chess with school obligations and… you know.. having a childhood?

A: During those years I loved chess and spent a good amount of time on it, but I would not say it was an unhealthy amount. The Masterman Chess Club had afterschool chess club twice a week, and I probably averaged playing two tournaments a month. I never had a personal coach, although Mike Shahade (Greg and Jenn’s dad, who is a US Chess Senior Master), certainly helped me out along the way. On my own, I studied maybe 5 hours a week on average, but I did it because I enjoyed it, not because anyone was pushing me, or because of any sort of driving ambition or goal.

Ben Johnson as a College Student

Q: Considering the circumstances, it is reasonable to guess why it was your peak. If I calculated correctly, ⁷ not long after you achieved your personal best, it was time to go to college.

First thing I would like to ask – in one of the episodes with Greg, you „cursed“ him because he got a chess scholarship for which you also applied. Since such things don’t exist in Croatia, could you explain what exactly it was about?

Did you already back then want to try for a chess career? Or was it more of a „that-sounds-nice-me-like-it“ decision?

A: Wow Vjeko, you really did your homework!

So, to clarify,  Greg received two different distinctions in a span of a few years:

• A scholarship to University of Maryland-Baltimore County (UMBC) in 1996- at the time UMBC was one of the only schools giving full scholarships to strong chess players. Greg was a year lower than me in school, so that did not factor into my college decision, and going to UMBC was not something I seriously considered. I really enjoyed my college experience at Pomona College.
• A few years later, in 1999, Greg also won a very prestigious award called The Samford Fellowship. This fellowship gives money to the top young American chess player each year to pursue chess professionally. This is the one I was jealous of! However, let it be noted I was not jealous in the sense that I thought I deserved the award- I was 300 points lower rated than Greg and by now had long been his whipping boy in blitz matches. There were dozens of kids more qualified to receive this award than me, and I had no illusions about that.

What  I was jealous of the lifestyle that the Samford afforded Greg- he had quit UMBC about a year after starting, and the Samford enabled him to not work, sleep in every day, play and study chess,  etc. To a 20-year-old racking up student loans this lifestyle sounded pretty good!

Q: In the end, you chose Pomona College where you graduated in Russian and History. How exactly did you choose those particular majors at that particular college?

A: I chose Pomona College, as it was the most prestigious and appealing school that I was admitted to. Believe it or not, I also had vague ambitions of playing college baseball. Once I got there though, I quickly realized that I wasn’t even good enough at baseball to make their team.

California is quite far from Philadelphia, and I liked the idea of “striking out on my own.“ As for my majors, politics was a subject that always interested me in an academic sense. I started studying Russian because I often heard it spoken at chess tournaments. I used to joke (sort of joke) that I wanted to be able to make sure my opponents weren’t cheating when they conversed in Russian during my chess games.

Q: How did chess fare during your study years? I recall you mentioning in one of the episodes you didn’t work seriously on chess after the age of 18. Is that correct?

A: My chess fell by the wayside pretty quickly. I couldn’t afford a car in college and thus couldn’t really get to any tournaments.  Without competing I didn’t have much desire to study chess, so I played blitz when I could, and played a few tournaments a year, but I didn’t spend nearly as much time on chess all in all.

Q: One of my favourite episodes of the Perpetual Chess Podcast is the episode nr. 42, featuring notable entrepreneur and anti-college advocate James Altucher. Although I don’t agree with him about everything and am not the biggest fan of his marketing methods, I learned a lot from his blog and books.

Considering you ended up doing something completely unrelated to your studies I am really curious about how you look back at your college years today. Where do you stand in the whole „College is not worth it“ debate?

A: Yes, I really enjoyed the James Altucher interview as well! I also do not agree with him on everything, but I am sympathetic to the arguments he makes about the cost-effectiveness of college. I think that the R.O.I on elite institutions is still decent despite the hefty tuition, but I think it would be an economic mistake to borrow $50K a year to study the humanities at an average university. As a parent, I think about these questions a lot, and I hope that the structure of American universities is changed in some way before my kids reach college age. Hopefully, you have a better system in Croatia! ⁸

Ben Johnson as a Young Adult

Q: In any case, time flew by, the „finish college“ mark was checked and adulthood knocked on the door. According to the About page on Perpetual Chess Podcast (you seem to have a lot of them :P), you said you worked two years after college in an office job. What kind of job it was?

A: After university, I took a job as a Legal Assistant/Paralegal in New York with the intention of going to Law School. Basically, my work entailed getting various documents for lawyers and sometimes scanning them for particular words, etc. The work was boring, but New York was fun.

Q: Where did this sudden transition to the law come from? Did you even try to find a job within your field of expertise (Russian/History)?

A: Not especially. Here in the US, it was fairly common to just pick a field of general interest within “the humanities” in University and then pursue a general job once graduating. I selected subjects to major in because one must pick a major, but I never felt like I had a clear sense of what my professional ambitions were. For such kids considering a career in law is fairly common, and my mom is a lawyer, so it was always a possibility in my mind.

Q: You mentioned the work in the office was boring. How fast did you figure out that the traditional 9-5 work might not be for you?

A: My decision not to work 9-5 that came about through trial and error.

After I finished working as a Legal Assistant/Paralegal I decided to apply for law schools despite seeing a lot of unhappy lawyers at my law office. I felt like I didn’t know what else to do.  While applying to law schools, I decided to teach chess for a year for Chess in the Schools.

Working at Chess in the Schools was when I became good friends with Mike Klein, (of chess.com and chesskid.com) as well- we were friendly from the US Chess Scholastic circuit, but started work at CIS the same year and ultimately became good friends and were roommates for 2 years.

Once I was teaching chess I realized I enjoyed it much more than office work, and fairly quickly decided not to pursue a career in law.

I should mention that during these years, I also had been playing poker by this point for a few years. Me and a few other chess players, including Greg Shahade, IM elect Donny Ariel and our friend Yakov Hirsch, who is a USCF expert,  all became immersed in poker together and began to make money as poker became increasingly popular and lucrative. In my mind, my nascent success in poker was another reason to freelance as a chess teacher rather than immerse myself in the rigors of law school or a more traditional 9-5, as it allowed me more time to play poker and see what came of it.

Ben Johnson as a Poker Player

Q: Ah yes. Poker! Everyone listening to your podcast has heard you mentioning it and discussing it on air. ⁹

Can you tell us when did you start playing poker? How did you come into contact with the game?

A: Yes, those who have been with Perpetual Chess from the beginning may have heard more poker mentions than they desired! I hope that I have gotten better at “sticking to chess“, or at least avoiding a lot of poker talk on the podcast as time has gone on.

I had discovered the world of poker via the movie Rounders in 1999 and ordered my first poker book a few days after seeing it.

As I mentioned above – I soon started playing it together with some other chess players. And earning some money.

Q: It sounds to me you started doing it as a hobby first. When did you realize it might become a career?

A: I was playing poker as a hobby while working from 1999 to 2003. Although it was a hobby, I developed an ambition quite quickly of playing it for a living.  In 2003 I started to have a lot of success playing poker, both in tournaments (which there is sort of a record of) and in online “cash games” which basically are buy in with what you want and leave with what you want. You also aren’t tracked publicly. You can sort of trace the timeline of my poker career by seeing my tournament record here. I also “multi-tabled” online, and was pretty successful with that as well.

(Note that although these are big numbers, they are “net winnings” and don’t reflect all the tournaments someone buys into and doesn’t make money in. Despite the buyins, overall I was doing very well in tournaments though. )

My first “big score” was in September of 2003, the beginning of the school year. The Borgata Poker Open for $11,000. That was the tournament that allowed me to finish paying off my student loan debts, and I continued to have success in cash games from there. So I finished out that school year from 2003-2004 as a chess teacher, then transitioned to playing poker full time in June 2004 by which point, I had a couple of even bigger tournament scores, including winning $80,000 for coming in  36^th place in the Main Event of the World Series of Poker in 2004.

Looking back now, the money I was winning is hard to fathom, as I work pretty hard to earn a normal wage here in 2019, but at that time there was just a ton of money flowing into poker, and if you read some books, had good emotional control and had some luck you could have results like I did, without being a poker genius.

Today, that is not the case!

Q: Yes, I have heard several times that the “Golden Era Of Poker” is behind us. Can you elaborate for the uninitiated? What made the difference?

A: A confluence of events led to an explosion in the popularity of poker. Probably the biggest factor was that a “hole-card camera” was invented that let people watch broadcasts of poker and see the players cards. This made everyone think they could be poker champions too, so lots of people tried poker online and at casinos.  As a result, games were extremely profitable in the 2000s, as it turned out most people weren’t so good! Once new “fish” stopped entering the pond, the fights for the old ones got more intense, and it became harder to make good money.

Q: Poker also started gaining more prominence… of authorities. We all know the example of Francisco Vallejo Pons ¹⁰. There were other events. For instance, 2011 is also when the US government unexpectedly shut down the biggest online poker sites, known to poker players as “Black Friday”.

 In a previous interview, Polish FM Kamil Plichta – who also makes a living out of poker, told me his parents weren’t satisfied with him “devoting time to that stupid card game”. How did your parents react when you told them :D?

A: My mom would have agreed with Kamil’s parents! In her defense, she had seen me come up on the short side of a few gambling encounters with chess hustlers in my teens, so I think her suspicion was warranted. My success at poker ultimately sort of won my mom over, but she has a bit of hippie-ness in her heart, so even when I was making a lot of money playing poker I think she would have preferred I be a broke poet rather than a rich poker player.

Like most parents, she mainly wanted me to be happy though.

On the other hand, my dad is an optimist by nature, and an avid sports fan, so to him the idea of competing to make money was one he could get behind right away, and he was my biggest fan when I was competing in tournaments regularly.

Q: You are definitely not the first chess player who fell in love with this particular card game. You already mentioned some names. There are other renowned examples, such as Jen Shahade or James Altucher. Even some world class player, like Hikaru Nakamura, Peter Svidler, afore-mentioned Francisco-Vallejo Pons or Alexander Grischuk have played it. Or still do.

In the podcast, you also mentioned several world-class poker players who have achieved 2200-2300 levels in chess.

I also know two lesser-known examples: Croatian IM Goran Djurović and the above-mentioned Chessentials guest Kamil Plichta.

Is there a reason why so many chess players get involved with poker? Can you reveal the secret behind this connection between two games that seemingly have nothing in common?

A: I think the mentality that chess instills is perfect for poker. In chess when you lose, you must honestly assess what you did wrong. There is invariably lots of study involved.

In poker, there is so much variance that one can avoid that question and blame luck if so inclined. Chess players generally are willing to look past the variance and “take responsibility for their results,“ and that goes a long way in poker.

The other thing is that chess has often attracted a type of person that is not interested in conventional academic pursuits and conventional jobs. Since seemingly every chess player knows another chess player who has become a poker pro it is a natural avenue to explore if one is seeking to avoid real life 😉

Q: Have you ever met some of the chess greats in a poker hall? Does your friendship with Jan Gustafsson stem from there? ¹¹

A: I have played poker with one of the original chess to poker cross over heroes, Dan Harrington, who reached about 2400 USCF and has had great success as a poker tournament player and author. Similarly, I am old friends with FM Ylon Schwartz, who is a chess lifer who made 2 million + in the World Series of Poker Main Event one year. I have not played poker with any true chess legends, like Hikaru, though.

As for Jan, I knew him through Greg Shahade before any of us were into poker, but our time as poker pros overlapped. Following my biggest poker tournament success, in Baden, Austria in 2006, I and another friend went to Hamburg to see the city and visit Jan. We had a good time.

Q: How is the process of improving at poker similar to the process of improving at chess? What does the poker training routine consist of?

A: Well is has changed a lot since my heyday. Back then, the 3 ways to improve were:

• Read books
• Study with computers. Programs like Pokertracker collected all of the hands you played online and helped you figure out in what situations you were making money and in which you were leaking it
• Talk over hands with other players

These days those things still apply, but there has also been an explosion in “poker solvers,“ something Jen Shahade talked about on Perpetual Chess, and that she discusses in her fun new poker podcast, The Grid. I still play a bit of poker, but I have not had the time or inclination to keep up with this amazing technology, instead, I try to learn from those who make videos synthesizing the information.

Q: As the old saying goes – all good things come to an end. In 2011, you said farewell to professional poker after 7 years. Can you tell us why?

A: As I explained above, it became more difficult. After some great years making 6 figure income, my earnings were slowing down significantly. I wasn’t working as hard on my game as I needed to be. I was also tired of traveling to casinos for tournaments and wasn’t particularly interested in traveling/moving just to chase the best games, which was becoming increasingly necessary.

Plus I had gotten quite interested in financial markets and trading starting in 2008 during the financial crisis.

After the “Black Friday”. I decided to focus on trading stocks- something I ultimately devoted 5 years to.

Q: Oh, I didn’t realize you were trading for so long. I think in the episode with Altucher you said that you weren’t that successful (as in – say – poker) and that you were “somewhere around zero” in total. Is that true?

A: Well, if you consider opportunity cost and cost of living trading was not even a break-even endeavor for me. I devoted years to studying, practicing and journaling trading, and I am proud of the approach I took despite a lack of success.

Q: How come you decided for day trading? I have done some investing on the side myself and literally, every book, from Benjamin Graham’s Intelligent Investor to A Random Walk Down Wall Street advised against it and recommended buy and hold instead.

With hindsight, which trading strategy would you recommend to a young investor?

A: I tried every trading/investing approach under the sun, and ultimately was drawn to day trading futures markets. I liked the combination of data analysis and pattern recognition that it required similar to poker. Based on my experience, I cannot argue with those who argue against it. I would guess that 1% of people that attempt to day trade find a way to consistently generate income, and I was not amongst that 1%.

With hindsight, I would not recommend any trading strategy to a young investor. Passive investing is the way to go. Even the “value investing” espoused by Benjamin Graham is having a tough go of late, as value investing is now taught in every business school in the world.  If you are looking for an edge in a market the financial markets are about the last place I would look! Sorry to be so cynical, but this is also the advice that I heard and read as well before I ignored it and insisted on going and making my own mistakes!

Links where you can find more about Ben

Perpetual Chess Podcast Website

Perpetual Chess Podcast Patreon

Perpetual Chess Podcast on Apple Tunes

Ben’s Twitter

Perpetual Chess Podcast Facebook Group

Perpetual Chess Academy

Ben’s Chesscom profile

This is the first part of the interview, in which we talk about Ben’s early years, his adulthood and time in college and how he got into poker.

The second part of the interview, in which we talk about his trading years, his transition back to chess teaching, about Perpetual Chess Podcast and his family, is available here.

The post Educator, teacher, podcaster – Ben Johnson Interview – Part One appeared first on Chessentials.